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Old 11-15-2007, 04:20 PM   #46
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Says Wikipedia:

In 1996, Bin Laden issued his first fatwa which called for "American soldiers to get out of Saudi Arabia".

The September 11 attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Shaykh Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman. In the fatwa, Bin Laden directed his followers "to kill Americans anywhere".He also outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people, the ensuing sanctions against Iraq, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Persian Gulf War. The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. It also opposes the presence of U.S. military bases and installations in the region, especially on Muslim holy land, which are used to "threaten" Muslim countries, while fomenting disunity and strife.
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Old 11-15-2007, 05:20 PM   #47
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So, now the USA are guilty?
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:37 PM   #48
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Haha! Yes, of course. We should forget the fact that the reason the USA was in the region protecting SAUDI ARABIA was due to the invasion of Kuwaiit by Iraq. We should forget the fact that the sanctions were put in place, because NOBODY in the region wanted to destablize Iraq by removing Saddam.

Haha! Love the WIKI quote.

Yep we are guilty alright.
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
because NOBODY in the region wanted to destablize Iraq by removing Saddam.



gee, why would nobody want to do that?
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl
Says Wikipedia:

In 1996, Bin Laden issued his first fatwa which called for "American soldiers to get out of Saudi Arabia".

The September 11 attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Shaykh Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman. In the fatwa, Bin Laden directed his followers "to kill Americans anywhere".He also outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people, the ensuing sanctions against Iraq, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Persian Gulf War. The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. It also opposes the presence of U.S. military bases and installations in the region, especially on Muslim holy land, which are used to "threaten" Muslim countries, while fomenting disunity and strife.
When Bush says something, for example, people are (rightly) skeptical of what he says. When he prematurely declared, "Mission Accomplished," nobody believed him, because the facts did not live up to the rhetoric...

...and, yet, the minute a terrorist organization regurgitates rhetoric like this, many people start quoting it as if it is the infallible gospel truth. The reality is that the hypothetical disappearance of the U.S. is not going to mean the dismantlement of Al Qaeda, because this rhetoric, frankly, does not live up to the scrutiny.

Al Qaeda has expressed an interest in the "revival" of the "Islamic caliphate," which means an interest in reclaiming, at least, all of the territories of the various Islamic empires that existed from the 7th century A.D. up to the beginning of the 20th century. If we are to do that, that would include all of the present-day Muslim nations in the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia; but also Spain ("Al-Andalus") and a good chunk of Eastern Europe, which, for centuries, had been part of the Ottoman Empire. Frankly, even if this goal were to be attained, I have my doubts that they would stop there, as these historical Islamic empires were known for their expansionism.

That being said, I reiterate my point again: Al Qaeda made itself a global threat; it is not an imaginary one or an American-provoked one. We can debate the proper course on how to deal with them. We can criticize Iraq for potentially being a costly diversion that has little to no relevance in dealing with the eradication of Al Qaeda. But engaging in "feel good" anti-American rhetoric is completely counterproductive and disingenuous, at best, and self-delusional, at the very least.
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:38 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

That being said, I reiterate my point again: Al Qaeda made itself a global threat; it is not an imaginary one or an American-provoked one. We can debate the proper course on how to deal with them. We can criticize Iraq for potentially being a costly diversion that has little to no relevance in dealing with the eradication of Al Qaeda. But engaging in "feel good" anti-American rhetoric is completely counterproductive and disingenuous, at best, and self-delusional, at the very least.


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Old 11-16-2007, 06:08 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
So, now the USA are guilty?
No. I'm saying the no doubt horrible events had a history and a context. You can't pretend 9/11 didn't have a background in years and decades of foreign policies (US in this case) in the Middle East, it's cheap at best and ignorant at worst to exclusively wave the victim flag due to newborn post 9/11 feel-good patriotism and shut out US's past and present actions in the region and the complexity of relationships in the region itself.

Dreadsox: Bin Laden wanted to fight the Iraquis in Gulf war I first (offered his services to Saudi Arabia), but was denied in favour of the coalition. Yet another thing that added to his anti-West rage.
Unrelated to the sanctions themselves, or removing Saddam.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:36 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl
No. I'm saying the no doubt horrible events had a history and a context. You can't pretend 9/11 didn't have a background in years and decades of foreign policies (US in this case) in the Middle East, it's cheap at best and ignorant at worst to exclusively wave the victim flag due to newborn post 9/11 feel-good patriotism and shut out US's past and present actions in the region and the complexity of relationships in the region itself.
It's "cheap and ignorant" to put on your blinders to all the other issues affecting the Middle East that have nothing to do with the U.S.

For one, that's ignoring the effect that the former Soviet Union had on this area. For two, that's ignoring the effect that the European (i.e., non-U.S.) colonial powers had on the region in the first half of the 20th century. For three, that's ignoring the effect that the nearly 600 year old Ottoman Empire had on this region, and the effect that its disintegration left behind.

And while we're on that last subject, I believe that is most of the reason why the Middle East is the way it is today; because, for better or for worse, these nations are only 80 years old, having never existed prior. Saudi Arabia, in particular, was a region of poor nomadic tribes in the 1920s, and only became wealthy upon the discovery of oil. Combine this with an opulent royal family that nobody particularly likes in Saudi Arabia, and you have the seeds that sowed the origins of Osama bin Laden's terrorism. He has openly stated that he wants to eliminate the "Saudi" portion of "Saudi Arabia" (as it is a reference to the nation's royal "House of Saud").

As for the U.S. in all of this? It is less of a direct enemy, as much as a symbolic one. In this case, the U.S. represents the ideals of secular capitalist society. It is less of a "nation" in the eyes of many, as much as it is representative of an "idea." There were many immigrants back in the day, for instance, that literally expected the streets of the U.S. to be "paved with gold." Contrast this with Al Qaeda's dream of reviving the Islamic caliphate--a position that Turkey (the modern successor to the Ottoman Empire, the last Islamic empire) legislatively abolished in 1924. It is their dream, as such, to pick up the mantle of the medieval Islamic empire, and, combining that with an especially harsh, extremist and highly intolerant form of Islam, and we would have the recipe for disaster that we have today.

If the U.S. disappeared tomorrow, do you honestly believe that Al Qaeda would disband tomorrow and everyone would go home peacefully? Think about it.

Quote:
Dreadsox: Bin Laden wanted to fight the Iraquis in Gulf war I first (offered his services to Saudi Arabia), but was denied in favour of the coalition. Yet another thing that added to his anti-West rage.
Unrelated to the sanctions themselves, or removing Saddam.
Quote:
While still in Saudi Arabia in 1989 [prior to the Gulf War I], he angered the Saudi royal family by preaching for and financing assassinations of socialist leaders in the neighboring country of Yemen, his father's homeland, where the country was in the process of re-uniting under a coalition government.
So let's get this straight. You'd prefer that Saudi Arabia hug up to a man like this instead?
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Old 11-16-2007, 02:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


If the U.S. disappeared tomorrow, do you honestly believe that Al Qaeda would disband tomorrow and everyone would go home peacefully? Think about it.


So let's get this straight. You'd prefer that Saudi Arabia hug up to a man like this instead?
I'll skip the history lectures that I don't need and just skip to the questions :

No. I don't think anyone said that anyway.

No, I just said the man offered his aid to Saudi Arabia.
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:18 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Al Qaeda made itself a global threat; it is not an imaginary one or an American-provoked one. We can debate the proper course on how to deal with them. We can criticize Iraq for potentially being a costly diversion that has little to no relevance in dealing with the eradication of Al Qaeda. But engaging in "feel good" anti-American rhetoric is completely counterproductive and disingenuous, at best, and self-delusional, at the very least.
Very well said. However, let me add that if enough people choose to ignore a very real threat, it's worse than self-delusional, it's negligent. And innocent people have, and will again, suffer for it.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:13 PM   #56
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Originally posted by INDY500


Very well said. However, let me add that if enough people choose to ignore a very real threat, it's worse than self-delusional, it's negligent. And innocent people have, and will again, suffer for it.


while i totally agree, i think it's worth saying that confronting this threat doesn't mean that we must turn ourselves into a presidential protectorate where torture, detainment, and rendition are seen as necessary to protect ourselves.

for they are not. and they destroy whatever is indeed worth protecting.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
while i totally agree, i think it's worth saying that confronting this threat doesn't mean that we must turn ourselves into a presidential protectorate where torture, detainment, and rendition are seen as necessary to protect ourselves.

for they are not. and they destroy whatever is indeed worth protecting.
Exactly. Especially since we run around condeming (and occasionally starting wars with) other countries that do those exact same things. The hypocrisy we've shown throughout this "war on terror" is astounding, and just makes it so much harder for us to be taken seriously.

melon's absolutely right, though, this issue is way too complex, there's no one thing that's caused the mess that's going on there now. We're not helping matters at all, no, we're just adding more fuel to the fire, and we desperately need to rethink our approach to dealing with the issues in the Middle East, but yeah, a lot of these problems would still be there even if we weren't, sadly.

Angela
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Old 11-17-2007, 05:34 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511





gee, why would nobody want to do that?
If they had done it in the gulf war....

It would have been a true multinational force, including countries from the region.

It should have been done then.

And I would bet with the true coalition, Iraq would look a lot different today.
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Old 11-17-2007, 05:41 AM   #59
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Originally posted by U2girl


No. I'm saying the no doubt horrible events had a history and a context. You can't pretend 9/11 didn't have a background in years and decades of foreign policies (US in this case) in the Middle East, it's cheap at best and ignorant at worst to exclusively wave the victim flag due to newborn post 9/11 feel-good patriotism and shut out US's past and present actions in the region and the complexity of relationships in the region itself.

Dreadsox: Bin Laden wanted to fight the Iraquis in Gulf war I first (offered his services to Saudi Arabia), but was denied in favour of the coalition. Yet another thing that added to his anti-West rage.
Unrelated to the sanctions themselves, or removing Saddam.
I fought in the first Gulf War. I know what was going on. I think it disturbing to find it our fault. I have been arguing in here since 9/11 that if the international coalition from the gulf war had dealt with Iraq, and removed Saddam, there would have been no 9/11. I made these points in 2001. It is six years later, and I still believe it.

I find it wrong to say the US deserved it, because they upset this fanatical asshole.
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Old 11-17-2007, 05:59 AM   #60
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Originally posted by U2girl


I'll skip the history lectures that I don't need and just skip to the questions :

I guess I score that one, point Melon.

You cannot ignore the history lecture because you clearly do need it.

Why would the Saudi government choose an INTERNATIONAL coalition over Osama's protection?

Hmmmm.....
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