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Old 04-25-2005, 10:52 PM   #76
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One thing 80's and Bono agree on is that Christ was sacraficed for our sins....when I can pry the book from my wife's sleeping fingers I will get the quote up here.

Peace
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:24 AM   #77
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
When thinking about sin, is it more sinful to sit by and watch African's die by telling them not to use condom's?

Which is the greater sin, having the sex, or telling them using a condom will put them at odds with the church? [/B]

bravo, Dread.

i'm quite certain that God knows that AIDS is worse than condoms, and that birth control is better than overpopulation, and that the only way to get people out of crippling poverty is to empower women with control over how and when they get pregnant.

you'd think that with the gift of free will would come an understanding of the need for pragmatism and rationality.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:21 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
When thinking about sin, is it more sinful to sit by and watch African's die by telling them not to use condom's?

Which is the greater sin, having the sex, or telling them using a condom will put them at odds with the church?
Isn't this ranking sin a different way?
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:02 AM   #79
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Isn't this ranking sin a different way?
It's only wrong when conservatives do it; didn't anyone ever tell you that?

Dreadsox, that was not aimed at you.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:03 AM   #80
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Isn't this ranking sin a different way?

Dread's example then begs the question -- perhaps sin should be ranked. God might not, but perhaps we have to in order to combat a greater evil, AIDS.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:05 AM   #81
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Isn't this ranking sin a different way?
Sin is already ranked. Some just admit it more than others.

I made this analogy about "communism" versus "capitalism." Communism blatantly tells you that the government owns your land. Capitalism tells you that you do own your land, but if you don't pay your "property taxes" ("rent"), the government takes it away. Even then, it still has full "eminent domain" rights for cheap. So tell me, in the end, how is that any different from communism?

Religion is the same way. Despite all the Christian bickering and how evangelicals / fundamentalists will argue that they're so much different than Catholicism, the fact remains that they're essentially the same. Catholicism is the blunt one, flat out telling you that your works matter, while evangelical Christianity tip-toes around the issue, saying originally that it's faith, not works for salvation, but then goes on "moral outrage" tirades against certain groups of people, and then claiming that their works are going to send them to hell by arguing that they don't have "enough faith."

And as for saying that "all sin" is the same, it's clear that they focus on only one kind of sin: the sins of "the Other." This kind of Christianity that Bono is railing against is nothing but a gigantic masturbatory session where they get to pride themselves on how "great they are," and how "bad others are."

So many exceptions have already been made for the "majority" in this nation. Despite Jesus' condemnations of divorce, the KJV oh-so-conveniently mistranslates "porneia," and, suddenly, despite more than half a dozen blatant passages against divorce in the NT, people latch onto one (sometimes two, depending on the translation) mistranslation found only within Protestant Bibles.

And then all the "greed" doctrines that simultaneously arose with the rise of Biblical fundamentalism in the 19th century and extending to the present. Jesus says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to reach the Kingdom of Heaven, then spends a lot of time talking about helping the poor. Yet, these "greed" theologies not only tell you that Jesus wants you to be as rich as can be, but that the poor deserve to be poor. Talk about a theological leap!

That's all modern religion is about: gross self-righteousness and judgmentalism against everyone that doesn't fit in with their hegemony. In this regard, the Pharisees never died, and it makes you ask whether Jesus' "First Coming" was for nothing. It appears that humanity learned nothing the first time around. These kind of Christians will never help against HIV/AIDS, because only "the Other" gets AIDS, whether it's those dirty sinful homosexuals or black people in Africa. God's chosen white American Christians don't get AIDS, remember?

Melon
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:18 AM   #82
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:39 AM   #83
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Hve you guys ever stopped to realize that a large, and I mean very large, percentage of the organizations that help poor people by feeding them, clothing them, helping them build shelter are run by Christians?
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:43 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Sin is already ranked. Some just admit it more than others.

I made this analogy about "communism" versus "capitalism." Communism blatantly tells you that the government owns your land. Capitalism tells you that you do own your land, but if you don't pay your "property taxes" ("rent"), the government takes it away. Even then, it still has full "eminent domain" rights for cheap. So tell me, in the end, how is that any different from communism?

Religion is the same way. Despite all the Christian bickering and how evangelicals / fundamentalists will argue that they're so much different than Catholicism, the fact remains that they're essentially the same. Catholicism is the blunt one, flat out telling you that your works matter, while evangelical Christianity tip-toes around the issue, saying originally that it's faith, not works for salvation, but then goes on "moral outrage" tirades against certain groups of people, and then claiming that their works are going to send them to hell by arguing that they don't have "enough faith."

And as for saying that "all sin" is the same, it's clear that they focus on only one kind of sin: the sins of "the Other." This kind of Christianity that Bono is railing against is nothing but a gigantic masturbatory session where they get to pride themselves on how "great they are," and how "bad others are."

So many exceptions have already been made for the "majority" in this nation. Despite Jesus' condemnations of divorce, the KJV oh-so-conveniently mistranslates "porneia," and, suddenly, despite more than half a dozen blatant passages against divorce in the NT, people latch onto one (sometimes two, depending on the translation) mistranslation found only within Protestant Bibles.

And then all the "greed" doctrines that simultaneously arose with the rise of Biblical fundamentalism in the 19th century and extending to the present. Jesus says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to reach the Kingdom of Heaven, then spends a lot of time talking about helping the poor. Yet, these "greed" theologies not only tell you that Jesus wants you to be as rich as can be, but that the poor deserve to be poor. Talk about a theological leap!

That's all modern religion is about: gross self-righteousness and judgmentalism against everyone that doesn't fit in with their hegemony. In this regard, the Pharisees never died, and it makes you ask whether Jesus' "First Coming" was for nothing. It appears that humanity learned nothing the first time around. These kind of Christians will never help against HIV/AIDS, because only "the Other" gets AIDS, whether it's those dirty sinful homosexuals or black people in Africa. God's chosen white American Christians don't get AIDS, remember?

Melon
Melon, you obviously don't know any of my Christian friends. Not one. In fact, I can say that based on the above post, you are basing your stance against evangelicals on the "loud and proud" few. The normal Christians don't make the news, they don't make headlines. But these normal Christians are the ones working in the soup lines, at the shelters, on the streets, giving to, supporting and even founding world relief programs like World Vision, Feed The Children, Compassion Internation, etc.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:48 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Religion is the same way. Despite all the Christian bickering and how evangelicals / fundamentalists will argue that they're so much different than Catholicism, the fact remains that they're essentially the same. Catholicism is the blunt one, flat out telling you that your works matter, while evangelical Christianity tip-toes around the issue, saying originally that it's faith, not works for salvation, but then goes on "moral outrage" tirades against certain groups of people, and then claiming that their works are going to send them to hell by arguing that they don't have "enough faith."
Not the Christians I know, Melon. Every Christian I know believes in grace and faith. Period. But just because we're saved doesn't give people a license to commit any sin they want. Did Christ tell the woman caught in adiltery "Neither do I condemn you, go and be at peace"? No, he told her "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". Like I've said before, when I witness about Christ, I do not bring up individual or certain sins, but I do talk about the braod sense of the word "sin". It is essential that people face their own sin, or they will never see the need for a savior.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:52 AM   #86
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Our church was raising awareness for the hungry last Sunday morning. One Pastor challenged the other to write a sermon about the forgotten passage - Luke 16:19-31 - The Rich Man and Lazarus. We were told that the passages sent to follow for weekly services never include this passage - as it is so in your face clear and scary. We will be judged on how we treat the poor and when it comes time for heaven the poor is first.

Luke 16

She did a great job with it, and basically said that even though members of our church supply food for the food pantry, cook and serve at a soup kitchen or walks for hunger raising money - it still isn't enough. What needs to change is our attitude towards those lesser off. It ends up following the same line of thinking as what Bono is trying to do. Token generosity isn't solving the problems - the poor are still poor. There is tons of food being thrown out every day yet millions of people go to sleep hungry. Why is that?
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:25 AM   #87
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
As unpopular as the idea is, I'm not going to sugar coat what the Bible says. According to the Bible, anyone who ultimately rejects Christ will go to hell. You need to know this, as does everyone.

Not even my own church, the Catholic church, takes that nonsensical view anymore (including the conservative Pope Benedict or JP2)

So you're saying that someone in Sunni Saudi Arabia who has never been exposed to Christianity in any way shape or form are going to hell, even though they believe in God?

I guess in your book one has to be a Christian to experience God's devine mercy....oh but I forgot, according to your fundamentalist logic (which many evangelical Protestants share), I'm a Catholic, not a Christian, so I'm going to hell with all my Papist brothers and sisters too.


Shame......
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:32 AM   #88
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LeafsNation;

Its not polite to call someone's religious views 'nonsensical', or any other name for that matter. You seem to have a valid point, but please try to be respectful. If everyone can remember that as the thread continues, that would be great.


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Old 04-26-2005, 11:17 AM   #89
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Originally posted by LeafsNation



Not even my own church, the Catholic church, takes that nonsensical view anymore (including the conservative Pope Benedict or JP2)

So you're saying that someone in Sunni Saudi Arabia who has never been exposed to Christianity in any way shape or form are going to hell, even though they believe in God?

I guess in your book one has to be a Christian to experience God's devine mercy....oh but I forgot, according to your fundamentalist logic (which many evangelical Protestants share), I'm a Catholic, not a Christian, so I'm going to hell with all my Papist brothers and sisters too.


Shame......
You obviously haven't been reading my posts, have you? I have said more than once that I do not believe that people who have never heard of Christ necessarily go to hell.

Even in the post you quote, I used the word "reject", didn't I? How can someone reject something they've never heard?

And don't say it's "in my book". It's in the Bible. I suggest you read it, and you'll see that Christ says himself that he is the only way to the Father and that only those who believe in him will enter the kingdom. Now, I leave room open for deathbed conversions, special relevation, whatever. I believe God's patience is almost unlimited in that respect; I think he'll keep on trying. But the Bible does say that if you ultimately reject Christ, you will not go to Heaven.

Frankly, this is ridiculous. I get tired of people who know nothing about my views attacking me in such a way, especially when my views are on public display for all to see.
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Old 04-26-2005, 11:18 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
LeafsNation;

Its not polite to call someone's religious views 'nonsensical', or any other name for that matter. You seem to have a valid point, but please try to be respectful. If everyone can remember that as the thread continues, that would be great.


Ant.
Thanks Anthony. If LeafsNation had taken a little time to get acquainted with my actual views, h might have found no reason to insult me.
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