Bono: What's always bothered me about the fundamentalists is - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-25-2005, 03:01 PM   #61
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


No, I didn't "shop around with the fear of hell in mind", I received what I believe was a calling of the Holy Spirit, and I responded in the affirmative.

The fear of hell is NOT more important than the love of my fellow person. If I do "good works" it is not as any kind of "investment". If I do any good work at all, it is "not I who do it, but Christ who lives in me that does it"(thanks, Paul of Tarsus, for that quote).

My Christianity and my love for my fellow man are not mutually exclusive at all. It is in fact, it is Christ's love and compassion of my fellow man that lives in me that fuels my own love and compassion for my fellow man and influences me to tell people how to go to Heaven and escape hell.

If I didn't have compassion and love for my fellow man, if I didn't care about others' eternity, why would I be even expressing my beliefs that all nonbelievers will go to hell? Wouldn't it be easier for me to just let people believe what they want, without offering my own opinions? It would be easier on me, as I am usually rebuked by nonbelievers for being "narrow-minded and self-righteous".

If I didn't care, I wouldn't tell about Jesus. Period.

so, really, it is all about hell? you love people enough to warn them about how to get away from it? is hell really that bad? what's it like? is it something to be escaped? is a child on the streets of Calcutta who perhaps dies young and never hears of Jesus Christ going to burn in hell alongside Jeffery Dahmer?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-25-2005, 03:04 PM   #62
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Dreadsox, I have stated before that I don't like it that many "Christians" seem to focus all their sin-energy on homosexuality than other sins. In fact, I have even said that I think adultery is worse than homosexuality, but many of the same people who are into the whole "hate on homosexuals" thing are committing that sin regularly.

For teh record, when I am presenting the Gospel t someone, I never focus on individual or specified sins. But I do stress that all people are guilty of sin and are therefore in need of a way to be redeemed and adopted into God's family. If I am to be effective, I have to bring up sin so that people will see their need for a savior. I know that if I thought I was good enough to make it into Heaven on my own, I wuldn't put my trust in Christ; If I was that good, there'd be no need for a savior.
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 03:10 PM   #63
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



so, really, it is all about hell? you love people enough to warn them about how to get away from it? is hell really that bad? what's it like? is it something to be escaped? is a child on the streets of Calcutta who perhaps dies young and never hears of Jesus Christ going to burn in hell alongside Jeffery Dahmer?
It's not all about hell. I want people to have, as Christ said, "Life and life more abundantly" here AND in the afterlife. And yes, hell is REALLY that bad. I don't know the specifics of hell for absolute certain except one thing: it is separation from God. And that is worse than ANYTHING I can imagine. And yes, it is something to be escaped, but my belief is only through Christ.

As for the person who dies never having heard of Christ, my belief is that he will not automatically go to hell. He will be judged by Christ under different standards of judgment. My reason for this belief is mainly when Christ told the Pharisees that "if you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say you see, your guilt remains".
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 03:26 PM   #64
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


It's not all about hell. I want people to have, as Christ said, "Life and life more abundantly" here AND in the afterlife. And yes, hell is REALLY that bad. I don't know the specifics of hell for absolute certain except one thing: it is separation from God. And that is worse than ANYTHING I can imagine. And yes, it is something to be escaped, but my belief is only through Christ.

As for the person who dies never having heard of Christ, my belief is that he will not automatically go to hell. He will be judged by Christ under different standards of judgment. My reason for this belief is mainly when Christ told the Pharisees that "if you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say you see, your guilt remains".

do you think english translations of the bible are designed to give followers an "out" when their beliefs lead them to very ugly places? i.e., the child in Calcutta.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-25-2005, 03:39 PM   #65
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



do you think english translations of the bible are designed to give followers an "out" when their beliefs lead them to very ugly places? i.e., the child in Calcutta.
No, I sure don't. I believe that what Christ was recorded as saying and what Paul was recorded as saying regarding these issues were part of the original text, not invented by translators. The Bible says nothing specifically and outright about what happens to people who have never heard of Christ, but there certain verses that can lead the earnest students of scripture into forming opinions that have basis in scriptural context.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 03:55 PM   #66
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


No, I sure don't. I believe that what Christ was recorded as saying and what Paul was recorded as saying regarding these issues were part of the original text, not invented by translators. The Bible says nothing specifically and outright about what happens to people who have never heard of Christ, but there certain verses that can lead the earnest students of scripture into forming opinions that have basis in scriptural context.

so you can conjecture, but you can't ever really know? shouldn't this humility then apply across the board, that it's all about faith and not about fact?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-25-2005, 04:16 PM   #67
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

is a child on the streets of Calcutta who perhaps dies young and never hears of Jesus Christ going to burn in hell alongside Jeffery Dahmer?
Heh....this is why us Calvinist conveniently have the doctrines of General and Special revelation.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 05:32 PM   #68
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Heh....this is why us Calvinist conveniently have the doctrines of General and Special revelation.

those self-perpetuating, self-referential belief systems ... sneaky, sneaky.

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-25-2005, 06:08 PM   #69
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



so you can conjecture, but you can't ever really know? shouldn't this humility then apply across the board, that it's all about faith and not about fact?
Irvine, read my posts on this, and you will see that always I use the words "I believe".
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 07:02 PM   #70
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Thank goodness for grace....that is all I can say!
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 07:20 PM   #71
Acrobat
 
Ft. Worth Frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 390
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Just to add a little to what 80s is saying...Though Jesus and some of the apostles mention hell, it is never given as a reason to follow Him. We should want to follow Him out of love, not fear. It always turns me off when preachers use Hell as a conversion tactic because Jesus never did that.

About focus on sin, I have attended many "fundamentalist" churches and rarely heard sermons on sex. The preachers I have seen kicked out left not over sexual problems but over money problems or something similar.
__________________
Ft. Worth Frog is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 07:41 PM   #72
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Irvine, read my posts on this, and you will see that always I use the words "I believe".


is that incompatible with the question i was posing? i meant to speak broadly, and in regards to fundamentalists, not solely to 80sU2isBest.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-25-2005, 09:00 PM   #73
New Yorker
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,637
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Going back to Bono's quote, this is quite interesting and wondering if someone can shed a little more light. I was watching one of those political morning shows on Sunday and they revisited an issue that Benedict [Ratzinger] supported -- that is, politicians who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage should sit down with their parish priest and, if they do not agree to go along with the church teachings, should not receive communion.

So my question is what is a sin that should be punishable by not receiving holy communion? I guess my problem is that I believe there are bigger issues than abortion and gay marriage in the church that I would focus on before those. For example, is a priest abusing a child worse than getting an abortion? If so, why are those who helped to hide the abuse not barred from communion? And what about the priests who helped in the slaughter of people in Rwanda -- is that support for people who commit genocide worse than abortion or gay marriage?

I guess the big issue I find in this case is that at least the Catholic church seems to be more obsessed with sex than what I consider more important issues and more obsessed with being AGAINST abortion than being FOR life -- life of those persecuted, life of those starving, life of those who are orphaned. Imagine if the energy expended to fight abortion in this country was instead used to protect Christian who are being killed in Sudan.

80s -- You brought up some interesting points, but what gets you into Hell? Which sins do you recognize as little sins and which sins do you recognize as Hell sins? Not trying to fight you, but I think one thing about this quote from Bono is that he is talking about the darker sins that don't get the splashy headlines...would these be sins that you would consider as a reason to go to Hell BEFORE abortion or gay marriage or are they all included in one big ball?
__________________
sharky is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 09:41 PM   #74
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
80s -- You brought up some interesting points, but what gets you into Hell? Which sins do you recognize as little sins and which sins do you recognize as Hell sins? Not trying to fight you, but I think one thing about this quote from Bono is that he is talking about the darker sins that don't get the splashy headlines...would these be sins that you would consider as a reason to go to Hell BEFORE abortion or gay marriage or are they all included in one big ball?
I've stated it before, but you may not have read those, so I'll say it again.

Any unforgiven sin sends you to hell. Any. God cannot abide in the presence of sin, so a person must be found "not guilty" in order to get to Heaven. The only way to be found "not guilty" is by being washed clean in the blood of Christ.

All unforgiven sin will keep you out of heaven, so on that level, all sins are as bad as each other. However, there are sins that reap a more serious earthly consequence than others, and that I believe God abhors more than others.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 10:51 PM   #75
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:12 AM
[Q]What's always bothered me about the fundamentalists is that they seem preoccupied with the most obvious sins. If those sins, sexual immorality and drug addiction, come out of unhappiness, then I am sure God wants to set people free of that unhappiness. But I couldn't figure out why the same people were never questioning the deeper, slyer problems of the human spirit like self-righteousness, judgementalism, institutional greed, corporate greed.You only have to look to unfair trade agreements that keep the developing world inthe Dark Ages to see the hypocrisy I'm talking about. These people talk about debasing a culture. What about the debasing of hundreds of thousands of real lives.[/Q]

When thinking about sin, is it more sinful to sit by and watch African's die by telling them not to use condom's?

Which is the greater sin, having the sex, or telling them using a condom will put them at odds with the church?
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com