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Old 04-25-2005, 11:18 AM   #46
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In reference to the term "sinner", it also depends on what you're talking about.

If by "sinner" you simply mean someone who sins, then yes, we're all "sinners".

But if you are using the term "sinner" as an indicator of how God sees us and identifies us, then not all are "sinners".

When Christ died on the cross, he made it possible that anyone who believes in him could be not just "saved" from hell, but "born again". Paul makes it pretty clear that when a person is "born again", his old "sin nature" is "crucified" and replaced with a new nature, the nature of Christ. So am I saying that Christians are perfect in the flesh and never sin? No, not at all. But I am saying that God does not see Christians as "sinners" and identify Christians as such. If God identifies someone as "sinner", it is because that person has not been forgiven, saved and born again, and cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, because his spirit is sinful, and God cannot abide in the presence of sin. When God looks at a Christian, he does not see sin (it has been washed away by the blood of Christ), and therefore he does not identify the Chistian as a "sinner". Paul uses the term "saint" to refer to Christians.

But this truth can often be a massive weapon of "perceived superiority" by Christians who think they are better than NonChristians. That's hardly the case at all. Christians are not sinners when it comes to God's identification of their spirits, but they certainly still sin, and the only reason Christians are "saved" and NonChristians are not is because of the grace and mercy of God the Father as expressed through the life, death and resurrection of the son Jesus Christ, not because of anything they have done to deserve it. The gift of eternal life and salvation is open to any person who chooses to accept that free gift.
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Old 04-25-2005, 11:55 AM   #47
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so are Buddhists, Shintoists, Jews, Hindus, atheists and Muslims going to hell?
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:20 PM   #48
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so are Buddhists, Shintoists, Jews, Hindus, atheists and Muslims going to hell?
As unpopular as the idea is, I'm not going to sugar coat what the Bible says. According to the Bible, anyone who ultimately rejects Christ will go to hell. You need to know this, as does everyone.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:22 PM   #49
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But God ultimately judges who will go to hell and who won't--not us. It is very much out of our hands.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:23 PM   #50
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
As unpopular as the idea is, I'm not going to sugar coat what the Bible says. According to the Bible, anyone who ultimately rejects Christ will go to hell. You need to know this, as does everyone.
I'm sure the Koran has a similar admonition for non-Muslims. That is, according to Islam, all Christians will rot in hell.

But that's the thing, I guess. Christianity puts authority in the Bible. Judaism (depending on the sect) puts authority in the Old Testament and/or the Talmud. Islam puts authority into the Koran. Zoroastrianism puts authority into the Avesta. Hinduism has its scriptures (I forget their names).

And for all of these religions, any scripture outside of their own has no moral authority. It's just a book.

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Old 04-25-2005, 01:27 PM   #51
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

When Christ died on the cross, he made it possible that anyone who believes in him could be not just "saved" from hell, but "born again". Paul makes it pretty clear that when a person is "born again", his old "sin nature" is "crucified" and replaced with a new nature, the nature of Christ. So am I saying that Christians are perfect in the flesh and never sin? No, not at all. But I am saying that God does not see Christians as "sinners" and identify Christians as such. If God identifies someone as "sinner", it is because that person has not been forgiven, saved and born again, and cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, because his spirit is sinful, and God cannot abide in the presence of sin. When God looks at a Christian, he does not see sin (it has been washed away by the blood of Christ), and therefore he does not identify the Chistian as a "sinner". Paul uses the term "saint" to refer to Christians.
I'm not trying to be a butt (b/c I think this is an interesting point), but I think it's important then for you to define what a "Christian" is.....at least for me so I can better understand this interpretation.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:30 PM   #52
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Hinduism has its scriptures (I forget their names).

The Vedas.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:43 PM   #53
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I'm not trying to be a butt (b/c I think this is an interesting point), but I think it's important then for you to define what a "Christian" is.....at least for me so I can better understand this interpretation.
A follower of Jesus Christ, not a follower of the "teachings of Christ" (love, etc.), but followers of Christ, which includes belief, trust and faith in Christ - who he is and what he has done for mankind.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:43 PM   #54
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Once again, I reject any notion that man-made religion hold the truth about going to heaven or hell. WE can have our human beliefs, but I think God has time and again shown that who he chooses might not always be who we think should be chosen.

Bono has a really good passage in the book about Jacob.....it was interesting.

I am done the book.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:46 PM   #55
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Originally posted by pax
But God ultimately judges who will go to hell and who won't--not us. It is very much out of our hands.
No, it's not in our hands. But we do have something to base our beliefs of this issue upon. The Bible does indeed say who will go to hell, and who will go to heaven, and how you can be sure you will got heaven. If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, they of course won't believe this. But I do believe in the Bible, and I care about people's eternity, so I'm going to tell them what I believe is the key to eternal life.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:48 PM   #56
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80's I am glad you are back....thank you for posting again.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:55 PM   #57
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Thanks Dread, for the nice comments.

I broke a promise to myself by posting in Free Your Mind again.
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Old 04-25-2005, 02:04 PM   #58
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No, it's not in our hands. But we do have something to base our beliefs of this issue upon. The Bible does indeed say who will go to hell, and who will go to heaven, and how you can be sure you will got heaven. If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, they of course won't believe this. But I do believe in the Bible, and I care about people's eternity, so I'm going to tell them what I believe is the key to eternal life.

so is it a cost/benefit thing? like, you shop around with the fear of Hell in mind, and then settle on a religion that has the clearest path away from Hell? is being a Christian, in this sense, like purchasing life insurance, or at least a kind of "get out of Hell, free" card? is fear of Hell more important than love of your fellow person? is behavior here on earth simply an investment, with the big return a pair of wings and a harp?
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Old 04-25-2005, 02:51 PM   #59
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so is it a cost/benefit thing? like, you shop around with the fear of Hell in mind, and then settle on a religion that has the clearest path away from Hell? is being a Christian, in this sense, like purchasing life insurance, or at least a kind of "get out of Hell, free" card? is fear of Hell more important than love of your fellow person? is behavior here on earth simply an investment, with the big return a pair of wings and a harp?
No, I didn't "shop around with the fear of hell in mind", I received what I believe was a calling of the Holy Spirit, and I responded in the affirmative.

The fear of hell is NOT more important than the love of my fellow person. If I do "good works" it is not as any kind of "investment". If I do any good work at all, it is "not I who do it, but Christ who lives in me that does it"(thanks, Paul of Tarsus, for that quote).

My Christianity and my love for my fellow man are not mutually exclusive at all. It is in fact, it is Christ's love and compassion of my fellow man that lives in me that fuels my own love and compassion for my fellow man and influences me to tell people how to go to Heaven and escape hell.

If I didn't have compassion and love for my fellow man, if I didn't care about others' eternity, why would I be even expressing my beliefs that all nonbelievers will go to hell? Wouldn't it be easier for me to just let people believe what they want, without offering my own opinions? It would be easier on me, as I am usually rebuked by nonbelievers for being "narrow-minded and self-righteous".

If I didn't care, I wouldn't tell about Jesus. Period.
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Old 04-25-2005, 02:53 PM   #60
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80's I am pretty sure you would consider yourself a fundamentalist....

If this is the case, could you respond to the original quote in this thread? Do you agree that there should be more of a focus on other sins besides the ones Bono specifies and focus on some of the others?
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