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Old 06-13-2008, 08:07 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Salome View Post
I wasn't even aware I was a Eurofederalist

in the end I don't care how we get rid of useless / hindering difference in legislation between EU countries just as long as it is dealt with somehow
maybe we wouldn't need much of a political unity to achieve this in a perfect world
As I said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But if you truly - in your own words - "don't care how we get rid of useless / hindering difference in legislation between EU countries just as long as it is dealt with somehow" - then that implies to me that you'd happily see dissenters got rid of.

And it implies to me that your intentions ain't good.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:16 PM   #107
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i didn't reckon i implied i'd kidnap and murder people standing in the way of what i reckon should be done
just that i think some stuff should be arranged whether in the form of a united europe or some other way

and if the reason why not to do this in a united europe is some warped sense that every country will give up its autonomy and identity then i'd be very interested to learn where you'd get this idea

to be honest though i really don't know what it is you do want
i gather you disagree with me
but i have no idea what it is you do want or why
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:35 PM   #108
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i didn't reckon i implied i'd kidnap and murder people standing in the way of what i reckon should be done
just that i think some stuff should be arranged whether in the form of a united europe or some other way

and if the reason why not to do this in a united europe is some warped sense that every country will give up its autonomy and identity then i'd be very interested to learn where you'd get this idea

to be honest though i really don't know what it is you do want
i gather you disagree with me
but i have no idea what it is you do want or why
I don't want a United States of Europe.
The people of Ireland don't want a United States of Europe.
The people of Denmark don't want a United States of Europe.
The people of the Netherlands don't want a United States of Europe.
The people of France don't want a United States of Europe.

And the rest...haven't been given a vote. All the electorates that WERE given a vote, said that they didn't want it.

What about that is unclear? Nothing could be clearer.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:42 PM   #109
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what is clear?
you never even said why you don't want a "United States of Europe"

you just yell "TRIPE!!!" a lot and then post some more random stuff that have little to do with the issue at hand
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:43 PM   #110
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What about that is unclear? Nothing could be clearer.
It's very clear but I think he was asking you to elaborate on why you have the opinion that you do.

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but i have no idea what it is you do want or why
That is certainly not clear.
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Old 06-14-2008, 03:13 AM   #111
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Further afield, what about Canada? New Zealand? Australia? Malaysia? All successful, small to smallish countries that don't feel the need to be part of a huge unaccountable bureaucratic powerbloc.
Australia is part of ASEAN. Also, our current good economic situation is wholly based on digging up every mineral and flogging it to the Chinese. We loike our Asian neighbours....
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:24 AM   #112
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ASEAN is hardly the European Union. No, Australia tends to do one-on-one power relationships, several of them simultaneously. At present, it is the US on the one hand, and China on the other. And let us not forget Japan, but that is more a relationship of equals, and both fall under the US umbrella. And then there's all the rest, on down the list.

I'm not really familiar with the politics of Europe. I wouldn't know where to start. Which doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, just that it's all over the place.
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:28 AM   #113
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Yes in terms of selling product, not by having to abide by dictates about or countries laws from a top down bureaucracy, we don't loose sovereignty by selling goods.

Financeguy is making the point that economic free trade zones can function without a superstate bureaucracy.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:18 PM   #114
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I am going to say the obvious here, the United States of America is one country. Maryland for example, is not a separate nation from New Jersey. We have state government and then the federal. One President.

My point, Africa is a continent, not a country. Though, an African Union might be a good idea, if these individual nations can work together for a greater good. Trade, employment and education should hopefully be of the highest concerns. Plus, the prevention and treatment of diseases.

I may be idealist, but I would hope that this would stop, the warfare that has displaced so many people.
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Old 06-22-2008, 05:25 PM   #115
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There is no longer any hope for Zimbabwe.

Quote:
Mugabe rival quits election race

Zimbabwe's opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai says he is pulling out of Friday's presidential run-off, handing victory to President Robert Mugabe. Mr Tsvangirai said there was no point running when elections would not be free and fair and "the outcome is determined by... Mugabe himself". He called on the global community to step in to prevent "genocide". But the ruling Zanu-PF said Mr Tsvangirai had taken the decision to avoid "humiliation" in the poll.

Quote:
KEY POLL COMPLAINTS
Violence: 86 killed, 200,000 displaced
MDC rallies banned
MDC leaders arrested, harassed
Food aid not given to opposition areas
State media refused MDC adverts
Zanu-PF supporters to be used as election officials
The opposition decision came after its supporters, heading to a rally in the capital Harare, came under attack. The opposition Movement for Democratic Change says some 86 supporters have been killed and 200,000 forced from their homes by ruling party militias. At a press conference in Harare on Sunday, Mr Tsvangirai said: "We in the MDC cannot ask them to cast their vote on 27 June, when that vote could cost them their lives."

"We have resolved that we will no longer participate in this violent, illegitimate sham of an election process."

"We will not play the game of Mugabe," he added.

He called on the United Nations, African Union and the southern African grouping SADC to intervene to prevent a "genocide" in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe's Information Minister Sikhanyiso Ndlovu told the BBC that Mr Tsvangirai pulled out the vote because he faced "humiliation and defeat" at the hands of President Mugabe, who he said would win "resoundingly".

"Unfortunately," he said, the opposition leader's decision was "depriving the people of Zimbabwe of a vote".

BBC Africa analyst Martin Plaut says the key question now is what Thabo Mbeki, president of Zimbabwe's powerful neighbour South Africa, will do. He is in the best position to step up the pressure on Mr Mugabe, since Zimbabwe is so economically dependent on South Africa, our analyst says. South Africa immediately responded to the news by calling on the MDC to continue talks to try to find a political solution.

"We are very encouraged that Mr Tsvangirai, himself, says he is not closing the door completely on negotiations," said a spokesman for Mr Mbeki.

On Sunday, the MDC was due to stage a rally in Harare - the highlight of the campaign. But supporters of Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF occupied the stadium venue and roads leading up to it. Witnesses reported seeing hundreds of youths around the venue wielding sticks, some chanting slogans, and others circling the stadium crammed onto the backs of trucks. Some set upon opposition activists, leaving a number badly injured, the MDC said. It said African election monitors were also chased away from the rally site.

The United States reacted to Sunday's developments by saying: "The government of Zimbabwe and its thugs must stop the violence now."

The MDC says Mr Tsvangirai won the presidential election outright during the first round in March. The government admits he won more votes than President Mugabe, but says he did not take enough to win outright.

But in recent weeks, as the run-off approached, the MDC said it had found campaigning near impossible. Its members have been beaten, and its supporters evicted from their homes, forcing it to campaign in near secrecy. Mr Tsvangirai was arrested several times, and the party's secretary general, Tendai Biti, has been held and charged with treason.

The BBC's Peter Biles, in Johannesburg, says Mr Mugabe has made clear he will never relinquish power, saying only God could remove him.

While Mr Tsvangirai's move will hand victory to Mr Mugabe, it is unclear whether the international community or election observers will confer any legitimacy on the process, our correspondent says. Britain's Foreign Secretary David Miliband told the BBC: "Robert Mugabe has certainly not won the election, in fact the only people who can claim that are the opposition," which won the parliamentary vote in March. Zimbabwean ministers said the run-off vote would go ahead, unless Mr Tsvangirai submitted a formal letter of withdrawal.

But Levy Mwanawasa, president of neighbouring Zambia, said the run-off should be postponed "to avert a catastrophe in the region". He said Zimbabwe's economic collapse was affecting the whole region, and he called on SADC to take a similar stance.

"It's scandalous for SADC to remain silent on Zimbabwe," he said.

"What is happening in Zimbabwe is embarrassing to all of us."

Source: BBC NEWS | Africa | Mugabe rival quits election race
Mbeki will sit on his hands. He has been using his "quiet diplomacy" bullshit on Mugabe/Zanu-PF since 2002. Nothing will change. If he didn't assert himself when Mugabe reckoned it was okay to murder white Zimbabwean farmers, he certainly won't do anything now. He is the very definition of ineffectual. Oh, but I suppose I shouldn't be too hard on Mbeki...the socioeconomic fabric of South Africa is unravelling around him. Mugabe's insanity is probably the last thing on his mind.

Yes, bring on the United States of Africa!
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Old 06-22-2008, 05:53 PM   #116
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Though, an African Union might be a good idea, if these individual nations can work together for a greater good. Trade, employment and education should hopefully be of the highest concerns. Plus, the prevention and treatment of diseases.
Other people must have thought so too - an African Union has been in place since 2002.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:12 PM   #117
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There is no longer any hope for Zimbabwe.



Mbeki will sit on his hands. He has been using his "quiet diplomacy" bullshit on Mugabe/Zanu-PF since 2002. Nothing will change. If he didn't assert himself when Mugabe reckoned it was okay to murder white Zimbabwean farmers, he certainly won't do anything now. He is the very definition of ineffectual. Oh, but I suppose I shouldn't be too hard on Mbeki...the socioeconomic fabric of South Africa is unravelling around him. Mugabe's insanity is probably the last thing on his mind.

Yes, bring on the United States of Africa!

Excuse me while I barf next time i hear about the greatness of Nelson Mandela, his country's government are Mugabe's biggest ally, he could step in and put pressure on Mugabe and put an end to this, but he and his governement continue to refuse to say a thing.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:26 PM   #118
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Excuse me while I barf next time i hear about the greatness of Nelson Mandela, his country's government are Mugabe's biggest ally, he could step in and put pressure on Mugabe and put an end to this, but he and his governement continue to refuse to say a thing.
Whats that got to do with Nelson Mandela ?
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:27 PM   #119
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Excuse me while I barf next time i hear about the greatness of Nelson Mandela, his country's government are Mugabe's biggest ally, he could step in and put pressure on Mugabe and put an end to this, but he and his governement continue to refuse to say a thing.
This probably is one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in FYM in a LONG time.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:22 PM   #120
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Excuse me while I barf next time i hear about the greatness of Nelson Mandela, his country's government are Mugabe's biggest ally, he could step in and put pressure on Mugabe and put an end to this, but he and his governement continue to refuse to say a thing.


Mandela's government? You say that as though he is still a prominent part of the ANC! I hate to be the one to break the news, but Mandela's political influence in South Africa is nearing its end. The incompetent fools who have followed in his stead are in the process of destroying everything that he fought for.

Direct your frustration where it belongs - squarely upon the shoulders of Thabo Mbeki and Jacob Zuma. Since they are essentially the two most-powerful men in southern Africa, they are the ones who should be doing something about Mugabe. Yes, I agree that Mandela could probably be a bit more vocal about the situation...but at the same time, we can't expect him to solve these problems forever. The current ANC has to demonstrate that it is capable of upholding Mandela's ideals without him. They're failing miserably in that department, and he's not even dead yet.
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