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Old 06-10-2007, 03:26 AM   #106
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Originally posted by Smallville

And I really don't think DATA has done anything of measurable value.
So give us an idea about what DATA failed to live up to.

In measurements.
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Old 06-10-2007, 07:07 AM   #107
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But only based on your point, U2 as a corporate, the business decision has to be made by the band's manager, not the band. I guess in U2's case, it might need the band to nod to get it actived and passed down, though. Let's don't forget U2 has four members.
Big business decisions ultimately have to be made by the band. The band manager is their employee.
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Old 06-10-2007, 07:12 AM   #108
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Originally posted by butter7


I know it's quite a lot of reading, but scan through previous posts you might be able to take a notice that the question in your original point has already been discussed.
Yeah, I know. You're upset Bono didn't create another Nike.
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Old 06-10-2007, 10:15 AM   #109
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Originally posted by ntalwar


Yeah, I know. You're upset Bono didn't create another Nike.
It's certainly not my problem if you intend to understand like that.
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Old 06-10-2007, 10:22 AM   #110
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Originally posted by ntalwar


Big business decisions ultimately have to be made by the band. The band manager is their employee.
You showed no better understanding on the basic concepts of how music industry works than the point of other people's posts.

You did get the manager's relation to the band correct though. But if you think as one of the owner of one company, a share holder drives the main business decision rather than the CEO, oh well, I don't know if I should feel sorry for you or just give it a ...

I guess I'll take the second option.
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Old 06-10-2007, 11:18 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


You showed no better understanding on the basic concepts of how music industry works than the point of other people's posts.

You did get the manager's relation to the band correct though. But if you think as one of the owner of one company, a share holder drives the main business decision rather than the CEO
U2 is not a publicly traded corporation .
In this case the shareholder is the co-CEO.

Good luck in passing your business classes.
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Old 06-10-2007, 02:01 PM   #112
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Originally posted by U2DMfan


So give us an idea about what DATA failed to live up to.

In measurements.
I haven't seen any true effectiveness in debt relief, and personally don't believe in it.
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Old 06-10-2007, 06:32 PM   #113
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I haven't seen any true effectiveness in debt relief, and personally don't believe in it.
Ever been to Uganda?

I love measuring things based on whether or not I believe in them.
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:26 PM   #114
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If everyone who is in disbelief on the progress of DATA, please read the following:

http://www.thedatareport.org/

This is the link to the DATA report which shows the progress that has been made in each area of debt relief.

I've read most of it and its very interesting:
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Old 06-10-2007, 10:33 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by ntalwar


U2 is not a publicly traded corporation .
In this case the shareholder is the co-CEO.

Good luck in passing your business classes.
Thank you.

I'm getting my master in July.
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Old 06-10-2007, 11:06 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER
If everyone who is in disbelief on the progress of DATA, please read the following:

http://www.thedatareport.org/

This is the link to the DATA report which shows the progress that has been made in each area of debt relief.

I've read most of it and its very interesting:

The DATA report indeed has some very interesting information, not only the facts.
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Old 06-22-2007, 12:06 AM   #118
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I am really late to this thread, and it's kind of off the front page, but I have many things to say so I'll say them anyway.

On the original topic of whether aid is good or bad:

Aid, FDI, and a variety of other innovative programs are all needed at once. The problem needs to be solved from the top down and the bottom up at the same time, but it needs to be coordinated to make sure programs fit together and aren't contradictory.

People who criticize the concept of aid to Africa have their heads up their bums. Criticizing actual implementation is another story, and there are some in the field, particularly economists, who've become convinced that proper implementation is unachievable. But the concept of giving aid to the poorest people in Africa (which Bono vigourously promotes) is no different than the concept of welfare that we have in the first world.

As for cash aid - it should definately be cash to buy food if you want to implement a food aid program, and there is great research and current thinking on this topic (basically what the US does is dump excess food to control our national market at the expense of screwing with local markets where we're dumping). But another consideration is who the cash goes to - transfers to host countries to buy food aid are one type of program, but increasingly what is working is cash programs on a community level, be they microfinance or cash for work or other programs that provide cash for recipients to develop businesses or assets or skills. These programs can be coupled with food aid and other types of aid programming - but even when I say aid programming it implies the wrong thing for what is increasingly successful. Instead of "aid" and "relief" programs should be focusing on developing livelihoods and self sufficiency. This all seems kind of obvious but there are so many failing programs that just pay no attention to it.


The Edun debate:

As for Edun being a product that workers can't afford to buy, of course not. The problem with industry in underdeveloped countries (mostly in Latin America and Africa) is that there is no production at all. Edun already wins (I'm not addressing the final product's marketability here) by being a production program. What has happened for hundreds of years is that the first world has used third world countries as cheap sources for raw materials, extracted them (often at unfair prices and almost always with practices that are extraordinarily unfriendly to workers) sent the resources back home to produce in our industrialized factories, then sold the packaged products back to the underdeveloped countries. (All this bullshit about China investing in Africa is more of that - it's a great market for China, but luckily African governments are starting to be aware of how extraction focused some of China's "investments" are). This decimates local markets and for years has hindered industrialization (though it is not the only thing hindering industrialization).

In terms of Edun as a model business model, I'm not sure about that. I'ts a nice feel good program, like Red, and I think if it ever ended up so wildly successful that it actually did hurt other similar-tiered designers' sales it would have an impact, but in this scenario Edun's success would just be a symptom of a wonderful shift among that set of consumers to caring about ethical buying to an extreme degree. (Let's face it, most people who buy Edun are probably also buying the unethically produced stuff - it all looks good in their crowds, and wearing that Edun shirt or for the less wealthy that Red shirt is a nice way of showing off your ethical intelligence when you go ahead and wear an "unethical" brand right alongside it. Not saying this is true of all buyers, but personal image is definately part of why these products sell.) In terms of programs that successfully encourage and implement industrialization and transition to processing and production in underdevelopped countries (production for export and for local markets), it can be done, and it will be done. And hopefully it will be done without making the poor poorer, although that has yet to happen with industrialization (but we have learned lessons from that in the past, are aware of the trend, and can develop programs that aim to mitigate it - again, whether these programs will be successful is another question).

Back on page 3 butter7 asked why Nike produces in China and Indonesia and not in Africa. The answer isn't cheap labor, that exists in Africa too, it's infrastructure. That is the huge roadblock to industrial development in Africa. In part lack of developed infrastructure can be blamed on climate issues, but a lot of the problem comes down to government decision-making. China and most Asian countries developed their infrastructure so they would be attractive places for production and business. India did it, espeically with telecom in parts of the country. That's a hugely important step that most African countries need to take to be more marketable for FDI - and it's something they need to ask potential investing companies to partner on - if a company sets up shop, uses the local labor force etc, governments in granting that contract must ask for the company to give back in the form of road maintenance or well digging or somesuch. Too often they haven't, because higher-ups in the government (or 50 years ago, colonial rulers) can line their pockets with production and with resource extraction without asking for this. (This is very cynical and I don't believe it's universal or uncurable or whatever - there are plenty of actors in all governments who care about national welfare as well.)

And by the way, butter, FDI companies bring in their own employees from outside the country all the time.

Edun contracts with local factories - so do many, many other companies for their international production. Coca Cola is one example - on the opposite end of the spectrum, in that the companies they contract with are very unethical. But this is the usual, Edun is the exception.


p.s. I agree, Edun's clothes are not made for curvey women. Excuse me if I look like I went through puberty. On the other hand with T-shirts I always go for a child's medium or large. And my, say, Red Sox jersey t-shirt in a child's medium is the same size as my U2 women's small t-shirts anyway.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:16 AM   #119
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^ Great post, and good to see you back. I hadn't seen this thread yet either

all_i_want made the point back on page 1 that infrastructure, education, health institutions, macroeconomic stability and rule of law are all essential to attracting economic investment and that aid programs which aren't geared towards providing those specifically will fail. It's a dauntingly long list; perhaps that's why some economists see it as 'unachievable'. I agree as far as it goes about the potential of microcredit; Muhammad Yunus and Grameen have achieved some wonderful things in Bangladesh that way, though as with other microcredit programs (in South Asia, at least; I don't know much about African ones) they've had to increase loan repayment costs as they weaned themselves off their initial donor supports and encountered criticisms that their accounting practices (rescheduling unpaid short-term loans rather than writing them off, etc.) make their repayment rate look better than it really is.

It's true that infrastructure development, along with all_i_want's other 'fundamentals'--education especially, though it remains a very unevenly distributed public good--made a critical difference in India's economy (though their infrastructure development is also very unevenly distributed). Is there much in the way of precedent for the idea of investors funding that themselves, though? Saudi Arabia is the only example I know much about of a country that became wealthy through its natural resources (only after profit-sharing arrangements secured by threatening to nationalize them, granted), but they developed their infrastructure themselves. I'm not familiar with cases of production-oriented companies having done much of that, either.

And I tend to agree with you about Edun, though it's not a topic I have strong feelings about...they seem to be successful on the terms they defined for themselves, but whether it's a widely replicable blueprint is questionable.
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:59 PM   #120
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There have been some remarkably successful microfinance programs in Africa as well as Asia, and some really, really bad ones as well. Such is the nature and history of aid and development programming.

In terms of infrastructure development, it's not so much investors funding it themselves as a partnership with governments (this is especially possible when contracts are up for bid/when there's some competition). So if a company is going to go into a certain area, the government might ask for joint financing of electricity, or schools, or something. This investment can be good for the company - better infrastructure, better workers, etc. But it is more costly so it is hard to get companies to agree. Another model that has been good with natural resources is requiring foreign extraction companies to use local workers and treat them fairly, to extract the resource sustainably, and at the same time setting aside some of the resource for ssustainable community development (see: Liberian timber).

This public-private partnership business is happening to a very limited degree and is looking like a good model in Africa. It's true that in Asia most of the development has been done by governments, but the competitive balance in the world has changed since then.
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