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Old 09-25-2002, 10:18 AM   #16
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I think absolute pacifism = Gandhi. Anti-war pacifism is another matter.

If everybody was anti-war, there would be no need for noble wars, would there? Sure it's an idealistic idea, but nonetheless it doesn't make it untrue.

RE: Bosnia: Please don't talk to me about non-pacifism in Bosnia. If the West had done something in 1991 when they should have and when the Serbs were slaughtering people en masse in places like Vukovar, we wouldn't have 250,000 corpses lying about there. There are sins of omission, and this one's one of them. (I believe the entire struggle could have been avoided if the West had accepted independence from the republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia immediately. But they didn't. In the end, they needed force to deal with the consequences of problems they didn't want to admit were there a decade earlier).
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Old 09-25-2002, 11:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
RE: Bosnia: Please don't talk to me about non-pacifism in Bosnia. If the West had done something in 1991 when they should have and when the Serbs were slaughtering people en masse in places like Vukovar, we wouldn't have 250,000 corpses lying about there. There are sins of omission, and this one's one of them. (I believe the entire struggle could have been avoided if the West had accepted independence from the republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia immediately. But they didn't. In the end, they needed force to deal with the consequences of problems they didn't want to admit were there a decade earlier).
Can we avoid to discuss about Bosnia, please, at least in this thread.

Thank you.
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:43 PM   #18
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Antrium,

I'm well aware for the failure of the west to act until 1995. I certainly believe that NATO should of acted strongly before June of 1991! You are correct that hundreds of thousands of people would be alive. The USA wanted to act by 1993, but was contrained by the opinions of its NATO allies. Bono was aware of this and damned the Europeans for not supporting US action earlier. While the USA was late to act, it did act and saved hundreds of thousands of other people that are alive today.
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:55 PM   #19
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HIPHOP,

Bosnia is a war and peace issue, US servicemen are there right now keeping the peace. Were not just talking about Iraq in this thread, were talking about Bono's opinions on the issue of war and peace. I have brought out factual statements by Bono in support of US military action in the Balkans and on the war in terrorism. This is Bono going on the record on these things. If you want to make believe that Bono was lying or really has a different opinion on those issue's, then that is your belief, but it is not supported by hard fact. I could just as easily say with your logic that Bono has supported every US military intervention over the past 200 years, and that he has only occasionally opposed US intervention in certain area's to sell more records.

Really, Its pointless to speculate on Bono's real feelings on a wide range of politcal issue's that he has not spoken about. We can look at what he has factualy said about things, but should not try to explain away what he has said to squeeze Bono in to our own political view. Bono is a complex individual like we all are, and most likely has some political views that none of us would support as well as some we would all agree with. But he is not a politician with a voting record, and the vast majority of his views are unknown.
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Old 09-26-2002, 12:08 PM   #20
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However great U.S. military presence in former Yugoslavia may be, I donīt want to discuss about that issue because I have seen too much hate on every side that was involved.

I am not trying to twist Bonos words around to fit my political views. I simply think he is against war. Very simple. The reason I think so is written down in the texts of U2s songs, at the very least I interprete them like that, yes, every work of art is opened to every interpretation.

If you think Bullet the blue sky is a pro war song, so be it. If you think you can strengthen your arguments by quoting what Bono says here or there on the war on terrorism or the situation in Bosnia, so be it. If you think it is a discussion about Bonoīs opinion on war/ peace without relating to a concrete issue, then please explain, Mark, why you linked that issue to the victims of the WTC in your second post. And explain why Jesus is not a pacifist.

I agree with your last paragraph though, STING2. Nobody knows what Bono really thinks. We canīt crawl into his brain, can we?

I believe there is no noble cause for war, Mark. War in itself is so cruel that it is never justified.

A preemptive strike canīt be self defense. A preemptive strike is an attack. No matter about who has the right to do what, a strike without personally being attacked is no self defense, and neither gets self defense in a big propaganda rush of justifying future wars.

Compare it with hooligans: if I see a buch of those weirdos, I wouldnīt think to fire a bullet just because they might hurt me. They might, because after all theyīre hooligans, but if they donīt threaten me with their weapons actively (not passively, it is not enough that I see they are carrying knives), I donīt have the right to pull out my gun and to shoot them. This wouldnīt be self defense in front of any American or European court.
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Old 09-26-2002, 02:19 PM   #21
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It would be if they had broken into their house. By your logic I guess my father and friends who have served in the military or are serving in the military are evil. I guess when a Police officer uses deadly force to defend innocent people is evil. I don't see it as wrong to pre-emt the actions of others who plan to do harm to innocent civilians at all. If war is never justified, then fighting for one's own life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is never justified either. I certainly do NOT agree with that. My Great, Great, Great, Great, Grandfather was at the first battle in the American Revolutionary war at Lexington and Concord. I admire his and others courage on that tough day in defense of freedom. I think it is wrong to stand by and do NOTHING when it is obvious that there are threats to security that could kill thousands of innocent people. Waiting and appeasement is what killed millions of people in World War II. I'm happy we have a president, and a congress(both democrat and republican) that realize these threats and are ready to pass a resolution approving the use of force if need be, to defend US and international security.

I never said Bullet The Blue Sky was a pro-war song, but I don't think its necessarily an anti-war song either. Its an anti- American intervention in central America of the type seen in the mid-80s. It a political arguement about a specific issue. No one likes war at all, except some sick individuals Saddam being one of them. BONO would himself kill anyone who threatened or tried to kill any of his childern. He has already alluded to this in past interviews. I think what he says in an interview does not explain his views on everything, but its certainly more revealing than one's interpertations of songs which may actually be incorrect.
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