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Old 07-08-2005, 08:51 PM   #406
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
After all, Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, too. Why weren't/aren't we investigating people that are similar to him in looks?
Because skinny white guys with bad haircuts and frowny looks on their faces tend to vote Republican. Ya don't want to piss off your support base.

(I think, however, that if those same skinny white guys were indeed subjected to that kind of treatment, a lot more of the people on this board would be outraged, outraged I tell you, at the profiling going on.)
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:53 PM   #407
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Originally posted by martha


1. Please speak for yourself.
Driving age? Drinking age? Eligibility for elected office?

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2. I make a point of examining my motives and thoughts to try to rid myself of "comfort" with discrimination. It appears that you might not.
Naturally, this begs the question of why all forms of discrimination are bad.
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:57 PM   #408
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Originally posted by martha

(I think, however, that if those same skinny white guys were indeed subjected to that kind of treatment, a lot more of the people on this board would be outraged, outraged I tell you, at the profiling going on.)
Straw man. Nobody here is advocating that people be searched in anything other than a professional, orderly manner.

I don't understand why people seem to think that the only possible alternative to a completely random search is a witch-hunt where every single brown-skinned person who passes through airport security is screamed at, spit upon and physically abused.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:01 PM   #409
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I havent' been on earlier cos been poorly in my sick bed. I am horrified by what's happened in London, as happened in Madrid, in New York and on a daily basis, Iraq and Israel.

Of all those places, the only one I've been to is London, where I stayed in the Tavistock Hotel for a couple of weeks and regularly took the Russell Square and Euston tubes.

I really hope this isnt an excuse for more xenophobic behaviour towards Muslims or "middle eastern looking" people, just because of what a small group of extremists have done. I agree with everything Sally, Martha and Angela have already said. My parents are Italian but I'm quite fair, so I pass for Anglo-Aussie in Australia and the rubbish I've heard some people say to me towards other "ethnic" people is horrifying. It's nice to see their faces when I tell them I'm Italian.

Making our society more extremist to deal with other extremists is not the way to go. The extremists are attacking our moderate way of living, our freedoms, the way that I as a female may choose how to live, what religion to believe or not, who to marry or not, how to dress, what to say, what to THINK. If we react in a negative way, they win.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:05 PM   #410
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


Bingo . After all, Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, too. Why weren't/aren't we investigating people that are similar to him in looks?
We do and should, but consider that there were nineteen guys involved in the 9/11 attacks, all of Middle Eastern descent. Plus a bunch of other guys involved in the 1993 WTC bombing. Plus a bunch of other plane hijackings in recent history.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:16 PM   #411
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Originally posted by speedracer


Driving age? Drinking age? Eligibility for elected office?
We could play games like these all night. I'm tired and this thread isn't the place for it.

BUT, driving at 16 brings legal responsibility (majority age of 18) and physical maturity (younger kids; pedals, etc) into consideration.

Drinking age? Why do teenagers need to drink? Physical maturity comes into it here as well; their bodies are still growing; they lack the reasoning skills to make the choices, etc.

I have some problems with the 35 year age limit for president, but as I get farther on the other side of 35, I can see some of the wisdom in the law.

Now, you can use thees laws and my responses to justify your prejuduce all you want, but only you will buy it.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:19 PM   #412
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Originally posted by speedracer


Straw man. Nobody here is advocating that people be searched in anything other than a professional, orderly manner.

I don't understand why people seem to think that the only possible alternative to a completely random search is a witch-hunt where every single brown-skinned person who passes through airport security is screamed at, spit upon and physically abused.
No, I think that if white men were subjected to the searches that others have had to endure, they would shit themselves and make sure it was outlawed.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:21 PM   #413
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Originally posted by speedracer

We do and should, but consider that there were nineteen guys involved in the 9/11 attacks, all of Middle Eastern descent. Plus a bunch of other guys involved in the 1993 WTC bombing. Plus a bunch of other plane hijackings in recent history.
So you support race-based profiling?
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:24 PM   #414
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


We could play games like these all night. I'm tired and this thread isn't the place for it.

BUT, driving at 16 brings legal responsibility (majority age of 18) and physical maturity (younger kids; pedals, etc) into consideration.

Drinking age? Why do teenagers need to drink? Physical maturity comes into it here as well; their bodies are still growing; they lack the reasoning skills to make the choices, etc.

I have some problems with the 35 year age limit for president, but as I get farther on the other side of 35, I can see some of the wisdom in the law.

Now, you can use thees laws and my responses to justify your prejuduce all you want, but only you will buy it.
Okay, how 'bout when a murder occurs and police are told to be on the lookout for a black man with a 5 o'clock shadow?

Today, we have credible information leading us to believe that a terror network consisting largely of Middle Eastern Islamic radicals may be plotting spectacular attacks against us. It'd be dumb to throw this information away. Sure, this information isn't as robust as seeing a guy running from a murder scene. But it's not too likely that you're going to see a bomber walking around in an airport with wires protruding from his jacket.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:26 PM   #415
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Originally posted by martha


No, I think that if white men were subjected to the searches that others have had to endure, they would shit themselves and make sure it was outlawed.
Rail against these sorts of abusive searches all you want -- I'm not going to argue. But please don't conflate it with the separate issue of figuring out who to check.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:27 PM   #416
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Originally posted by martha


So you support race-based profiling?
Please read my last post on page 27 (not just the last throwaway sentence that you quoted earlier) and you'll know exactly what I support. Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit testy, but I really think I've communicated my ideas as clearly as possible and I think people are talking right past them.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:52 PM   #417
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sally, i don't really know you, but that was a really creepy story you had. if we want to complain about abusing civil liberties, i am a high school teacher here in the us... my kids complain about every little rule saying it's violating their rights. whether it be driving age, drinking age, smoking age, voting age, getting reprimanded for bad behavior (i get a kick out of that one), whether or not someone who is 18 can play in the nba.... you know what, what is the big deal? there are consequences when a small minority does something wrong... why do you think we have laws? if everyone committed murder, would it be illegal? that's a bit of a theoretical question, but if these 'security checks', and even if they are a farse as some of you say, help to curb terrorism, regardless of how many people actually participate in it, what is the big deal? i am not the most liberal person in the world, but i think that all this liberal/conservative bickering is really stupid. let's face reality: terrorism exists, and it has to end, regardless of your political beliefs or whether or not some laws step on our toes a little. those of us from western countries have the opportunity to stop governments from squashing our rights, it's called voting, but apparently not everyone sees the point in voting, millions of people complain, but very few of them do something to help their cause.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:58 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Straw man. Nobody here is advocating that people be searched in anything other than a professional, orderly manner.

I don't understand why people seem to think that the only possible alternative to a completely random search is a witch-hunt where every single brown-skinned person who passes through airport security is screamed at, spit upon and physically abused.
I don't understand why people seem to think that terrorism will be combatted by searches based purely on PEOPLE'S INDIVIDUAL, and therefore highly subjective, ASSUMPTIONS OF whatsomeone's race is. That's neither logical nor sensible.

Quote:
But they'd search middle-aged Middle Eastern-looking people more frequently than other groups.

You didn't answer my question about how you would decide whether or not these people were Middle Eastern, anyway. Where do you draw the line?

I don't have much time for 'political correctness - a term that was initially taken from a court ruling and turned into a a joke, anyway - but I do have a huge problem with anyone who believes that they can solve the problem of terrorism by widening the gulf between 'different cultures'.

What part of 'fair treatment' do you not understand, precisely?

It's one thing to be a raving advocate of the far left - or right for that matter - basing an argument purely on lofty ideals. I'm not doing that. What I AM saying, is that deliberately advocating a biased, ineffective, unworkable, and fundamentally racist policy, which is based purely on the individual perspective of security personnel, is moronic. I don't believe it is stupid to stand up against THAT - quite the opposite.
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Old 07-08-2005, 10:10 PM   #419
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how do we end terrorism? tolerance? the US and other nations staying away from islamic holy sites (which i actually understand), completely ignoring the middle east, universal communism where everyone is equal.. no rich or poor, kill every person associated with terrorism.. that's impossible. i think it starts with the gap between rich and poor.... i think that money and power have more to do with it than policy or religion. a level playing field in terms of trade and globalization would be ideal, but is it practical? i live in a really wealthy nation, one that was built by people's hard work (aside from some people born with silver spoons in hand). through hard work and education i think that anyone could achieve at least some sense of equality.
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Old 07-08-2005, 10:12 PM   #420
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Quote:
Originally posted by sallycinnamon78

I don't understand why people seem to think that terrorism will be combatted by searches based purely on ethnicity. That's neither logical nor sensible.
El Al seems to do a pretty good job of it. They have really skilled agents. But from what I understand they subject Israelis who speak perfect Hebrew much less rigorously than everyone else.

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What part of the principles of fairness and equality do you not understand, precisely?
Enough to know that they're not identical.

Quote:

You didn't answer my question about how you would decide whether or not these people were Middle Eastern, anyway.
I suspect that to gain your approval I'd have to forward this question to someone who actually works for El Al. Verbal accent, skin color, facial characteristics and information in identity documents carry a lot of information though.

Quote:

Where do you draw the line?
I don't know. As with many things, there are grey areas. It's impossible to make these identifications with 100% certainty, but 100% certainty is not needed for the searches to be effective.
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