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Old 07-08-2005, 01:30 PM   #391
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Now back to the argument already in progress:

So many of you are so willing to put your civil rights up on a shelf because "it might save a life."

You realize you'll never get them back, don't you? EVER.

I'm not willing to subject myself (or my darker-skinned brothers) to unConstitutional searches because some dipshit wants to blow me up. These searches don't turn up anything anyway. They offer the illusion of security while slowly our rights are eaten away and we roll over and take it.
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:42 PM   #392
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Agreed, martha.

Also agree about the medical staff. Those people are definitely amazing, dealing with all that stress and that many people and going into dangerous situations and everything. People like them don't get nearly enough praise for what they do. to the medical personnel, as well as any other public officials who came in to help out.

Angela
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Old 07-08-2005, 02:09 PM   #393
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I agree, Martha. Why should anyone who's dark-skinned and of Asiatic heritage necessarily get checked? After all, Al-Qaeda has adherents with all sorts of European heritage, and they are getting through without getting checked. The "shoe-bomber" was a Brit, for heaven's sakes.
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Old 07-08-2005, 02:20 PM   #394
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Good point Martha and verte:
People have been bitching for years about old ladies and little kids getting searched at airports...um, would they not be the best "mules" for someone who wants to do something sinister? It does not make sense to search people who "look Muslim" ONLY. People can be nasty and evil and will use the system to their advantage.
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Old 07-08-2005, 02:29 PM   #395
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I didn't know being searched at the airport was a breach of our constitutional rights. I thought it's always been within the airport security's power to search passengers before they board a flying tank of fuel.

For the last time, I don't think all Arabs are terrorists, or all Muslims are fanatics, or anything like that. But it seems like some people want to tiptoe around the fact that Al Queda *is* a fanatical Muslim organisation who are the highest security threat to our country right now (at least as far as terrorism). Searching Middle Eastern passengers at a higher rate seems only logical to me. Even if it only creates the illusion of increased security to discourage terrorists from trying it again in the future.

My science teacher's last name is Youssef, and even though she's white pink and rosy (her ex was Egyptian), she was briefly searched last time she flew. It wasn't that big of a deal.
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Old 07-08-2005, 03:25 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
Searching Middle Eastern passengers at a higher rate seems only logical to me.
Because it doesn't affect you.

When you start losing your rights due to the way you look, you'll change your tune.

And it will happen. Wait a few more years.
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Old 07-08-2005, 03:27 PM   #397
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
I didn't know being searched at the airport was a breach of our constitutional rights. I thought it's always been within the airport security's power to search passengers before they board a flying tank of fuel.
We're talking targeted searches of individuals of specific ethnicities. When they seacrh every single person, or engage in truly random searches, they we can say it's a fair system.

Until then, it's racial profiling and it's bullshit.
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Old 07-08-2005, 03:28 PM   #398
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As some of y'all know, i just got back from europe. My german teacher has a darker complexion (though he has NO middle east decent) and every single time we went through security he was pulled out and patted down. it became very frustrating because he was obviously being profiled.
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Old 07-08-2005, 05:53 PM   #399
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I was also at King's Cross after the 1st Twickenham show. Erie stuff. I hope everyone is ok.

Jon
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Old 07-08-2005, 06:05 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
As some of y'all know, i just got back from europe. My german teacher has a darker complexion (though he has NO middle east decent) and every single time we went through security he was pulled out and patted down. it became very frustrating because he was obviously being profiled.
. Glad you made it back here okay. I was wondering about you.

Angela
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Old 07-08-2005, 06:19 PM   #401
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Quote:
Originally posted by enggirl
Good point Martha and verte:
People have been bitching for years about old ladies and little kids getting searched at airports...um, would they not be the best "mules" for someone who wants to do something sinister? It does not make sense to search people who "look Muslim" ONLY. People can be nasty and evil and will use the system to their advantage.
Of course they would. They're not dummies. No doubt they coach their members on how to answer if they're questioned by airport security, so you shouldn't completely rely on screening interviews either.

(Warning: quick game theory lesson ahead.)

Searching only people who appear Middle Eastern is dumb, because it's obviously offensive and because it's an easy tactic to beat -- the terrorists would work really hard to get white people or old ladies to carry their bombs. But on the other hand, al-Qaeda isn't exactly awash in white recruits, and it's not a trivial matter to convince an old lady to carry a suspicious package for you. So they can't send all their bombs with white people/old ladies/little kids/whatever.

What happens is that this little game of cat-and-mouse reaches what's called a mixed-state Nash equilibrium. Airport security can't completely rule out the possibility that a little kid, old lady, white person or whoever else might be a terrorist, so anybody is a candidate to be searched. But they'd search middle-aged Middle Eastern-looking people more frequently than other groups.

Yes, it's discriminatory, but if you think hard enough, you'll realize that a lot of things in life that you're comfortable with are discriminatory.
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Old 07-08-2005, 06:47 PM   #402
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
I agree, Martha. Why should anyone who's dark-skinned and of Asiatic heritage necessarily get checked? After all, Al-Qaeda has adherents with all sorts of European heritage, and they are getting through without getting checked. The "shoe-bomber" was a Brit, for heaven's sakes.
Well said.

I didn't respond to this yesterday because, after being awake for 2 days on the trot and watching the news all day, I wasn't exactly at my most articulate.

I'm an Englishwoman, born and bred, apart from 3 years spent living in the USA. My family is originally Asian. Although my skintone is quite light for an Indian - not that that matters at all - it's easy to see that I am of Asian descent.

I flew from London to Amsterdam on September 15th 2001, with my friend Emma. Emma has very pale skin. When we went through the security checks to board the plane, I was wondering whether my skintone would have any effect on the way I was treated. Emma and I went through totally seperately. They didn't give me a second glance - in fact, it was Emma they stopped and searched... they made her take off her bracelet. Why? It had a rubber spike on it. I had no problems anywhere on our travels on that occasion, which, knowing how idiotic people can be, gave me something of a nice surprise.

A year later I travelled by train to my mum's in Switzerland. When we had crossed the border between Belgium and France, 3 security guard customs men (with guns, I might add), came round. They asked for my passport completely at random. So I showed them, and of course they saw I was a British citizen. Didn't stop them interrogating me for 10 minutes

They went through my suitcase. They frisked me. I knew damn well that they had no right to do so, there was no female guard there, but I was so shocked that I didn't argue. They also went through my hand luggage, and read all my personal letters from my fiance. I snatched my bag off them when they were about to leave me alone at long last.

One of the bastards leered at me and said "is there a problem?" My response was "where I come from, we don't treat visitors like dogs". They didn't have anything to say to that and left.

All because of the way I look. Nobody else on those carriages got 'searched'.

I'm quite happy to go through a ton of security checks, but I think this should apply to everyone. Profiling that doesn't account for criminals of various backgrounds, being based purely upon ethnicity, isn't going to stop the crime. That's what's known as common sense. If you're gonna single someone out because of their appearance and your prejudice, then I have a major problem with you.
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Old 07-08-2005, 06:49 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
Intelligent responses only, please:
If you want an intelligent answer, it helps to ask an intelligent question in the first place.

Quote:
As some of y'all know, i just got back from europe. My german teacher has a darker complexion (though he has NO middle east decent) and every single time we went through security he was pulled out and patted down. it became very frustrating because he was obviously being profiled.
Another point - how do you tell where someone is originally from? The colour of someone's skin frequently tells you nothing about their nationality, and it is quite often hard to distinguish people of one country, or 'race', from others. This is an important point.

One of my friends is of partial Arab descent. His sister is much paler. You wouldn't know they're related. So, based on what the two look like, he has been searched at airports, while she's been left to go through with no comment at all. Theoretically, is she any less likely than he is to be a terrorist?!

One of my uncles is much darker skinned than I am, while his wife is Russian, very pale, with blue eyes, while . My eldest cousin is blonde and pale, while her five sisters are of a variety of hues, in skintone, hair colour and eye colour. The same applies to my nieces. If you saw most of us, you'd have no idea whatsoever where we came from.

In the UK, people assume that I am of mixed race, Indian, or Pakistani. In the States, people assume I am Puerto Rican or Mexican. Until January 16th 1991, that is, when I started getting called 'Saddam Hussein's daughter', of course.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha


We're talking targeted searches of individuals of specific ethnicities. When they seacrh every single person, or engage in truly random searches, they we can say it's a fair system.

Until then, it's racial profiling and it's bullshit.
Precisely.
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:09 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally posted by sallycinnamon78
I'm quite happy to go through a ton of security checks, but I think this should apply to everyone. Profiling that doesn't account for criminals of various backgrounds, being based purely upon ethnicity, isn't going to stop the crime. That's what's known as common sense.
Bingo . After all, Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, too. Why weren't/aren't we investigating people that are similar to him in looks?

That's crappy what happened to you. Reading your personal letters? Wow.

Angela
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:47 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

Yes, it's discriminatory, but if you think hard enough, you'll realize that a lot of things in life that you're comfortable with are discriminatory.
1. Please speak for yourself.

2. I make a point of examining my motives and thoughts to try to rid myself of "comfort" with discrimination. It appears that you might not.
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