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Old 02-23-2006, 08:14 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Are one person's feelings worth more than anothers?
would you deny that social stratification plays any role in these stories?

look, i'm not going to defend islam or any other revealed religion, but it seems obvious that empowered white males love to preserve their ability to insult fringe minorities under the badge of free speech and expression.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:20 PM   #17
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1.2 Billion Muslims on the planet compared to how many atheists? They are hardly a fringe minority, I would say that offending the fringe minority which is Muslims who fly off the handle at these insults is a noble enough pursuit - just like it is to scrutinise so-called saints who were in life utter bastards and pretty much any exclusive belief system.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:26 PM   #18
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
race is not strictly an idea, it is not something that you can change through conversion.
Not being ethnically German isn't an "idea" either, as their citizenship laws underline. The gulf separating these communities runs much deeper than anyone's theology. If Germany's Muslim population had been limited to ethnic German converts, it's most unlikely Mr. van H. would have thought to associate them and their religious beliefs with the London bombings in the first place.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
1.2 Billion Muslims on the planet compared to how many atheists? They are hardly a fringe minority, I would say that offending the fringe minority which is Muslims who fly off the handle at these insults is a noble enough pursuit - just like it is to scrutinise so-called saints who were in life utter bastards and pretty much any exclusive belief system.
my previous post was a lesson in generalities. muslims are obviously not a fringe "minority" on the global scale. there was also a tragic typo that i have now corrected.

that said, politically speaking most arab muslims are a definitely a fringe minority, if metaphors are allowed. chastised and invaded by foreignors, abused and manipulated by religious leaders. when people who have no real voice of their own are constantly berated by westerners, what do you expect to happen? instead of pointing and laughing it may be a more worthwhile venture to explore the causes of such behavoir on a deeper level.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:32 PM   #20
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Understandable but regardless of race or ethnicity peoples belief systems (their philosophies, prophets, commandments and icons) are all ideas and deserve absolutely no legal protections.

It is a free speech issue regardless of how offensive it is.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:40 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Se7en

instead of pointing and laughing it may be a more worthwhile venture to explore the causes of such behavoir on a deeper level.
Nobody is preventing discourse and the free exchange of ideas, engagement with people generally works better if one is polite. But this can only exist when you have free speech. If offensive acts and statements are off limits then how long before articles of faith become complete taboo? Whatever is done then it is "our" fault, if these communities are isolated by free speech then "we" are to blame, if these communities are shielded from criticism and become isolated in their magical faery land then "we" are to blame. Integration is a good thing and it is not helped by legal barriers and protections.

I should be under no obligation to observe religious rules, accepting that society will be offensive to your beliefs but having enough faith and respect for the social contract to weather it is how most believers have to operate, behaving like an angry teen whenever you are offended then tough shit.

This argument applies equally against all religions and religious institutions, exceptions for nobody - not Jews, not Christians and not even crazy as all fuck Scientologists.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:47 PM   #22
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I'm willing to bet some guy writing a nasty and offensive comment isn't the biggest problem facing Muslims in Germany.

Maybe instead of making a show of this they could focus on the greater causes of alienation like discrimination in housing and employment...speaking of which, "ethnic" Germans aren't gonna be happy with anyone that doesn't seem ethnically German with the unemployment they've got at the moment.
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Old 02-24-2006, 05:47 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Nobody is preventing discourse and the free exchange of ideas, engagement with people generally works better if one is polite. But this can only exist when you have free speech. If offensive acts and statements are off limits then how long before articles of faith become complete taboo? Whatever is done then it is "our" fault, if these communities are isolated by free speech then "we" are to blame, if these communities are shielded from criticism and become isolated in their magical faery land then "we" are to blame. Integration is a good thing and it is not helped by legal barriers and protections.

I should be under no obligation to observe religious rules, accepting that society will be offensive to your beliefs but having enough faith and respect for the social contract to weather it is how most believers have to operate, behaving like an angry teen whenever you are offended then tough shit.

This argument applies equally against all religions and religious institutions, exceptions for nobody - not Jews, not Christians and not even crazy as all fuck Scientologists.
i would agree with you if there were no double standards, like laws protecting judaism or christianity, while not caring about islam.

i think the blasphemy laws are stupid anyway, i should have a right to blasphemy! people might not like my attitude, but i should not be limited by laws. thats what social pressure is for, i guess
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Old 02-24-2006, 10:11 AM   #24
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Anti-blasphemy laws are pretty stupid.
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Old 02-24-2006, 11:21 AM   #25
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Yet, anti-blasphemy laws (including codes and regulations of similar nature) are more common than ever.
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Old 02-25-2006, 11:20 PM   #26
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if blasphemy was a crime in the USA, i'd have racked up a life sentence by now!

i say "goddamn" and "goddammit" a lot, as well as saying "jesus christ!" as an exclamation and "for chrissake!"

it's fun!
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Old 02-26-2006, 02:05 PM   #27
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Yeah, I'd get busted if the U.S. had anti-blasphemy laws.
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Old 02-26-2006, 02:14 PM   #28
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Good thing we can celebrate the First Amendment.
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Old 02-27-2006, 03:25 AM   #29
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Quote:
Kofi Annan
The offensive caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad were first published in a European country which has recently acquired a significant Muslim population, and is not yet sure how to adjust to it.
link

Well Islam does claim universal jurisdiction and my fibre of being at birth but having completely abandoned any chance of that ever happening

Call me bigoted and old fashioned but common law, free speech and freedom of religion should be non-negotiable aspects of these societies and musn't be bent to the will of "recently aquired" populations.
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