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Old 09-06-2005, 09:22 AM   #61
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Let's put it this way. Once the relief efforts are complete and New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf Coast are back on their feet, the government organizations will go through a "lessons learned" exercise. They will end up with a list of the things that should have been done differently.

Where do you think Condi's shoe purchase will end up on the list?

Top 10? Top 500? Will it make the list at all?
Once again, what difference does this make to whether her actions were acceptable? I'm sure there have been many larger mistakes, but I fail to see why this means that her individual mistake should be excused.


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I hope she enjoyed her time in New York. I'm sure she could use a little time off considering the pressures of her job.
I'm sure she's rewarded with ample vacation time, I just think it's wrong that she chose to use it days after a catastrophic natural disaster. She's a senior government official, is it too much to expect that she put her job ahead of her leisure activities at this time? For goodness sake, I'm not allowed to take time off work in certain months of the year because those are the busiest for the company I work for, why is it so wrong to expect that the Secretary of State not take time off work during what should be an extremely busy time for the government?

I guess there's nothing left to say on this subject. I still can't comprehend the fact that people are defending her decision to prioritise watching tennis and shopping for shoes over helping the victims of the hurricane. Evidently others see it differently, for reasons which you all seem unwilling or unable to disclose, so I guess we'll all just agree to disagree.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:25 AM   #62
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Thanks for the link. If we all had the time, it would be interesting to read through the reports to pinpoint the breakdowns in the disaster response.
It's a fun read, "government speak" at its finest.

I like this point:

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The benefits of the NIMS system will be significant:

Interoperable communications processes, procedures and systems
FEMA, that means do not cut the local emergency operation department's communication and telephone lines to insert your own without telling them, 'cause the locals . . . they still need to communicate with each other.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:33 AM   #63
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I'm sure she's rewarded with ample vacation time, I just think it's wrong that she chose to use it days after a catastrophic natural disaster. She's a senior government official, is it too much to expect that she put her job ahead of her leisure activities at this time? For goodness sake, I'm not allowed to take time off work in certain months of the year because those are the busiest for the company I work for, why is it so wrong to expect that the Secretary of State not take time off work during what should be an extremely busy time for the government?

I guess there's nothing left to say on this subject. I still can't comprehend the fact that people are defending her decision to prioritise watching tennis and shopping for shoes over helping the victims of the hurricane. Evidently others see it differently, for reasons which you all seem unwilling or unable to disclose, so I guess we'll all just agree to disagree.
On the other hand, next time the facility I work in is activated as a shelter, I can tell my boss I "could use a little time off" and maybe see a movie or something.
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Old 09-06-2005, 12:26 PM   #64
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An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

by Robert Tracinski
Sep 02, 2005
by Robert Tracinski
It took four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it also took me four long days to figure out what was going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists—myself included—did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over four days last week. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency—indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.

"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

" 'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows a SWAT team with rifles and armored vests riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to speed away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Superdome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage one night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Technology, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"—the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels—gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of those who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then told me that early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails—so they just let many of them loose. [Update: I have been searching for news reports on this last story, but I have not been able to confirm it. Instead, I have found numerous reports about the collapse of the corrupt and incompetent New Orleans Police Department; see here and here.]

There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit—but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals—and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep—on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. In a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters—not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

People living in piles of their own trash, while petulantly complaining that other people aren't doing enough to take care of them and then shooting at those who come to rescue them—this is not just a description of the chaos at the Superdome. It is a perfect summary of the 40-year history of the welfare state and its public housing projects.

The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005
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Old 09-06-2005, 12:41 PM   #65
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Hi Westport, could you please check out this thread http://forum.interference.com/t138722.html about the posting of long newspaper articles or editorials. I'm not criticising you at all because of course you probably aren't aware of this yet, but in future please try to post just a paragraph or two from an article or editorial and provide a link to people can read the rest of the article if they wish.

Thanks.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:07 PM   #66
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What about the Commerce secretary? Where was he? And the transportation secretary?

Why weren't these people in LA immediately.
Hmmm, perhaps they were in Washington, DC and actually doing their jobs.

I continue to be amazed at how some people go to great lengths to defend the actions (or, in this case, non-actions) of the Bush administration for what happened over the past week.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:14 PM   #67
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I continue to be amazed at how some people go to great lengths to defend the actions (or, in this case, non-actions) of the Bush administration for what happened over the past week.
Of equal or greater amazment is how quickly the criticism comes for the most trivial of matters.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:25 PM   #68
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Of equal or greater amazment is how quickly the criticism comes for the most trivial of matters.
In your opinion, perhaps. I don't consider any of this trivial at all. Not when something of this magnitude happens.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:30 PM   #69
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Of equal or greater amazment is how quickly the criticism comes for the most trivial of matters.
My God- how can this be trivial!?

Where is the outrage??

Nations are lining up for help, and planes sit on runways because they can not contact the State department.

More people likely died because Condi could care less about doing her job. Then, when she finally realizes the PR disaster of what she is doing, goes back to work only to continue the collosal failure with more beaurocratic red-tape.

I just don't understand the denial.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:33 PM   #70
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Please. The results of the hurricane are not trivial.

But the criticism has been over issues for which many people do not have all the facts.

Or simple matters like spending of personal time by unrelated government officials.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:48 PM   #71
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Or simple matters like spending of personal time by unrelated government officials.
One surely can't be so dense as to think that Condi Rice, our Secretary of State, going on vacation DURING and AFTER the worst natural disaster in our nations history, when foreign nations are actively trying to make arrangements to send aid with our State Department (in a time of national emergency, no less!!!) be "unrelated"???

wow.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:50 PM   #72
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Please. The results of the hurricane are not trivial.

But the criticism has been over issues for which many people do not have all the facts.

Or simple matters like spending of personal time by unrelated government officials.

The one fact I know was that the response by the federal government was inexcusable, and for that, blame goes first and foremost to the President.

And I don't know about you, but I've worked jobs before where if there was something of urgent need, people would unite to work on fulfilling that need, despite what department they were in, because we were all part of the same company with a common goal - to make the company as successful as possible.

It doesn't matter if Rice's primary area is foreign policy. When a matter of urgency arises and you are part of the administration involved, everyone needs to work together so that urgency is addressed thoroughly and promptly.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:58 PM   #73
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Originally posted by elfyx
One surely can't be so dense as to think that Condi Rice, our Secretary of State, going on vacation DURING and AFTER the worst natural disaster in our nations history, when foreign nations are actively trying to make arrangements to send aid with our State Department (in a time of national emergency, no less!!!) be "unrelated"???

wow.
Surely you can't be so dense as to think that her evening out slowed down delivery of foreign aid.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:59 PM   #74
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Originally posted by phanan



The one fact I know was that the response by the federal government was inexcusable, and for that, blame goes first and foremost to the President.

And I don't know about you, but I've worked jobs before where if there was something of urgent need, people would unite to work on fulfilling that need, despite what department they were in, because we were all part of the same company with a common goal - to make the company as successful as possible.

It doesn't matter if Rice's primary area is foreign policy. When a matter of urgency arises and you are part of the administration involved, everyone needs to work together so that urgency is addressed thoroughly and promptly.
Well, if you scream knowing only one fact, you will often look foolish.
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:04 PM   #75
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Your one-liners are tiresome...
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