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Old 09-05-2005, 05:39 PM   #46
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I didn't realise that.

I'm sorry but I fail to understand those of you who are defending her actions. She could have been doing something to help the people in New Orleans and instead she chose to go shopping and watch tennis. How is this acceptable to you? She prioritised her leisure activities over her job just days after a terrible natural disaster.

To me this has nothing to do with soundbites or indignation or anything else it's been dismissed as, it is quite simply that I cannot understand how it is acceptable for the Secretary of State to spend her time watching tennis and shopping for shoes when she should have been doing whatever she could to help the relief effort.

How is this acceptable? Please, enlighten me because right now I cannot comprehend the fact that people are defending her conduct.
It is amazing the load of shit piled on Condi, when not word one is mentioned about the job local politicians have done in preparing their cities for such an event. This is nothing more than chest thumping over an "unacceptable" perception.
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:42 PM   #47
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Can you say "fiddling while Rome burns?" Since when was tennis and shopping more important than the victims of the worst natural disaster in the country's history? Speaking as a participant in the aftermatch of the disaster I have to say that this really pisses me off. And I don't know how many times I've defended Condi in the past. A bunch.
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:46 PM   #48
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It couldn't really come down to a he-said/ she-said battle at the federal vs. state/local levels could it? There's got to be hard evidence of the offical declarations? It may prove that local officials f***** up the Feds legal ability to act as needed, but that isn't proven and can't be presumed.

What I'm dreading would be claims of paperwork/emails that are in dispute as to having been sent or not.
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:52 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is amazing the load of shit piled on Condi, when not word one is mentioned about the job local politicians have done in preparing their cities for such an event. This is nothing more than chest thumping over an "unacceptable" perception.
Well, what other ways are there to perceive her actions? I can't conceive of an interpretation of events by which it would be acceptable for the Secretary of State to prioritise her leisure activities over her job in the light of the events of the last week.

There may well be areas in which local politicians have failed, but that doesn't excuse Dr. Rice's actions. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And for the final time, I am not interested in "soundbites" "chest thumping" or "indignation." I am simply curious about why it is deemed acceptable for such a senior Bush administration official to spend her time watching tennis and buying shoes just days after the worst natural disaster in US history. As yet none of those defending Dr. Rice have been able to give any sort of answer to this question beyond dismissing it as "chest thumping" or claiming that local officials made mistakes too.
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:52 PM   #50
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What about the Commerce secretary? Where was he? And the transportation secretary?

Why weren't these people in LA immediately.

I'm with nbcrusader on this one. You guys are shoving 20 pounds of shit in 1 pound bags.
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:57 PM   #51
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
What about the Commerce secretary? Where was he? And the transportation secretary?

Why weren't these people in LA immediately.

I'm with nbcrusader on this one. You guys are shoving 20 pounds of shit in 1 pound bags.
People weren't asking her to go down to LA. People were asking that she do her job after a national crisis, instead of shopping for expensive shoes and seeing broadway plays.

As for the others, I hope they were doing their jobs too.
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:57 PM   #52
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
What about the Commerce secretary? Where was he? And the transportation secretary?

Why weren't these people in LA immediately.

I'm with nbcrusader on this one. You guys are shoving 20 pounds of shit in 1 pound bags.
I have no idea where those officials were. But what difference should that make to whether Dr. Rice's actions are excusable or not. Either the secretaries of commerce and transportation were helping coordinate relief as they should have been, or they weren't. If they were, excellent. If they weren't, they should be criticised too.

But whether other government officials acted appropriately or not doesn't excuse Dr. Rice's actions. How hard would it be for those who are defending her to simply accept that she was in the wrong, she should have been focusing on her job and she shouldn't have been spending her time on leisure activities. I can see many of you are frustrated that her actions have received media attention, but unless you honestly believe that it was appropriate for her to spend her time watching tennis and buying shoes, why won't you admit that she was in the wrong?
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:57 PM   #53
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Once again, it's about the perception. The Commerce and Transportation Secretaries wouldn't get onto the nightly news unless they went on a bank robbing spree wearing Nixon masks.

For someone as smart as Condi Rice, she made a bad decision, as a government official who's highly visible to the nation, to go and do these trivial things after such a huge natural disaster and amid such confusion.

It's naive to think that a good deal of politics isn't about image and perception. To think that she knew what was going on and decided to be gallavanting about seems awfully callous.

(Callous of her, I mean. My sentences go on too long and forever and forever without ever ending and are really confusing and redundant and long-winded and extraneous and runon ...)
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:48 PM   #54
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
And for the final time, I am not interested in "soundbites" "chest thumping" or "indignation." I am simply curious about why it is deemed acceptable for such a senior Bush administration official to spend her time watching tennis and buying shoes just days after the worst natural disaster in US history. As yet none of those defending Dr. Rice have been able to give any sort of answer to this question beyond dismissing it as "chest thumping" or claiming that local officials made mistakes too.
The very question is chest thumping indignation. Dr. Rice's role in government is essentially unrelated to the relief efforts. If there is something from her department that did not get done due to her New York trip, please let us know.

If we are to continue with your line of thought, we might as well get a complete list of high ranking officials and evaluate their actions for anything that can be characterized as "not doing enough for relief effort". Please, let's start that productive effort.
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Old 09-05-2005, 07:17 PM   #55
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The very question is chest thumping indignation. Dr. Rice's role in government is essentially unrelated to the relief efforts. If there is something from her department that did not get done due to her New York trip, please let us know.

If we are to continue with your line of thought, we might as well get a complete list of high ranking officials and evaluate their actions for anything that can be characterized as "not doing enough for relief effort". Please, let's start that productive effort.


there was a phrase that Bush 1 used this morning in his press conference in relation to the blame, or as it more aptly might be called, DEMAND FOR ACCOUNTABILITY, being thrown at his lil' boy this morning: "it comes with the territory."

all of these people at the highest levels of government know that their actions are scrutinized in times of national emergency. it comes with the territory; it was poor decision making on Condi's part.

however i do agree that her precise role has little to do with the relief efforts.

Bush and Cheney, however, are a very, very different story.

and, yes, i do think your list, created over time, would be a productive thing to do. the buck stops somewhere, except with this white house, where the buck stops nowhere and no one gets fired and people who must be HELD ACCOUNTABLE (interesting that you choose to call this blame) for grevious lapses in intelligence are given congressional medals of honor.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:53 AM   #56
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The very question is chest thumping indignation. Dr. Rice's role in government is essentially unrelated to the relief efforts. If there is something from her department that did not get done due to her New York trip, please let us know.

If we are to continue with your line of thought, we might as well get a complete list of high ranking officials and evaluate their actions for anything that can be characterized as "not doing enough for relief effort". Please, let's start that productive effort.
I'd be grateful if you would stop assuming that you know my motivation in asking questions about Dr. Rice's conduct better than I do. I have explained repeatedly the nature of my concern with this issue and stated quite clearly it is nothing to do with "chest thumping indignation" and yet you continue to characterise it as such.

I believe that as Secretary of State (a position which, as you pointed out earlier, deals with foreign affairs) she could have been helping to respond to and coordinate offers of foreign aid from other countries. Therefore I don't accept the argument that her role is "unrelated to the relief efforts." Even if that were true, would it be too much to expect that a highly paid and experienced member of government could not find some work worthy of her attention in the aftermath of a catastropic natural disaster?

If you'd like to compile a list of the responses of other government officials then go ahead, I'd be interested to read it. However, as I explained previously, I don't believe that the conduct of other officials can be used to justify Dr. Rice's actions. To me, her behaviour was unacceptable regardless of the way in which other government officials responded.

Once again, I really find it hard to believe that this is even a subject of debate. A senior government official prioritised buying shoes and watching tennis over doing her job in the aftermath of the worst natural disaster your country has experienced, I can't comprehend the fact that people are defending that decision. I understand that perhaps people are frustrated that this has received some media attention, but in that case why aren't you able to acknowledge that she was in the wrong but also state that you're unhappy that the media have reported this.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:53 AM   #57
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The White House effort to shift the blame for the response to Katrina contradicts its public statements before the storm hit. An Aug. 27 declaration on the White House website "authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts." The order specifies that "FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency." Jane Bullock, former FEMA chief of staff, said, "The moment the president declared a federal disaster, it became a federal responsibility.… The federal government took ownership over the response." This is consistent with the DHS website which states plainly, "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility ... for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort."
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:03 AM   #58
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Once again, I really find it hard to believe that this is even a subject of debate. A senior government official prioritised buying shoes and watching tennis over doing her job in the aftermath of the worst natural disaster your country has experienced, I can't comprehend the fact that people are defending that decision. I understand that perhaps people are frustrated that this has received some media attention, but in that case why aren't you able to acknowledge that she was in the wrong but also state that you're unhappy that the media have reported this.
Let's put it this way. Once the relief efforts are complete and New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf Coast are back on their feet, the government organizations will go through a "lessons learned" exercise. They will end up with a list of the things that should have been done differently.

Where do you think Condi's shoe purchase will end up on the list?

Top 10? Top 500? Will it make the list at all?




I hope she enjoyed her time in New York. I'm sure she could use a little time off considering the pressures of her job.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:14 AM   #59
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They will end up with a list of the things that should have been done differently.

Like this:

http://www.fema.gov/nims/

They've started it already. Not going so great by the looks of things.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:19 AM   #60
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Like this:

http://www.fema.gov/nims/

They've started it already. Not going so great by the looks of things.
Thanks for the link. If we all had the time, it would be interesting to read through the reports to pinpoint the breakdowns in the disaster response.
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