Bishops Want to Ban Kerry from Communion
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nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
This raises an interesting issue - who decides whether or not you are a Catholic (for example)? Is it all self-declared? Is there a membership that can be revoked?
And if there are such principles of control, are they applied on a consistent basis?
Also, on the specific point of communion, denominations have differing standards for who can take communion.
My guess is that there are many congregants who have publicly stated views similar to Kerry?s, but have not been denied communion
And if there are such principles of control, are they applied on a consistent basis?
Also, on the specific point of communion, denominations have differing standards for who can take communion.
My guess is that there are many congregants who have publicly stated views similar to Kerry?s, but have not been denied communion
Liesje
Blue Crack Addict
I have a HUGE problem with any person trying to ban another person from Communion.
"let ye who is without sin cast the first stone"
tackleberry
War Child
Is John Kerry Catholic?
pax
ONE love, blood, life
He is Catholic, yes.
Divorced Catholics, contrary to popular thought, CAN receive Communion, even if their marriage has not been annulled. They can only be denied Communion (and many are not) if they REMARRY outside the Church WITHOUT having their first marriage annulled. Although Kerry is remarried, so...
I'm sure this has to do with being pro-choice. Tom Ridge, when he was governor of Pennsylvania, got a lot of the same flak for being pro-choice and Catholic.
Divorced Catholics, contrary to popular thought, CAN receive Communion, even if their marriage has not been annulled. They can only be denied Communion (and many are not) if they REMARRY outside the Church WITHOUT having their first marriage annulled. Although Kerry is remarried, so...
I'm sure this has to do with being pro-choice. Tom Ridge, when he was governor of Pennsylvania, got a lot of the same flak for being pro-choice and Catholic.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Ah, the irrelevance of the leadership of the Catholic Church continues...
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Aren't churches suppose to be reaching out to the down trodden, the sinners, the poor etc and try and bring them salvation? This sounds more like an elitest club.
No offense to the Catholics on this board, but this is one of my biggest pet peeves with the Catholic Church I think their exclusions go against everything Christ taught. The curtains were torn and they should have stayed that way.
No offense to the Catholics on this board, but this is one of my biggest pet peeves with the Catholic Church I think their exclusions go against everything Christ taught. The curtains were torn and they should have stayed that way.
pax
ONE love, blood, life
On one hand, I do believe the Church has the right to exclude people from Communion; on the other hand, I don't believe that that makes it *right*. I technically "shouldn't" receive Communion when I go to Mass, but I take it anyway because the priests at my school know my background and they don't have a problem with my taking Communion.
Personally, I think Communion should be open to whoever wants it. Communion was not intended to be a signal of membership in an exclusive club; it is to remind us of Christ's sacrifice for ALL of us--who are ALL sinners.
Personally, I think Communion should be open to whoever wants it. Communion was not intended to be a signal of membership in an exclusive club; it is to remind us of Christ's sacrifice for ALL of us--who are ALL sinners.
Priests Should Refuse Communion to Kerry, Leading Catholic Says
Sen. John Kerry's defiance of his Church's condemnation of abortion and approval of gay marriage is not only a problem for him and Catholic bishops, but for individual Catholics as well, according to a leading Catholic layman and editor.
He says Catholic priests should refuse to give Holy Communion to Kerry even if their bishops have not specifically warned the senator that he is not to receive Communion.
That demand of excommunication for Kerry is made by Deal Hudson, editor of Crisis magazine, the nation's leading intellectual Catholic journal.
Hudson is a respected Catholic layman, and his views are often sought by national media and government officials, including the Bush White House.
In an exclusive interview with NewsMax.com, Hudson said that the matter of individual bishops ordering Kerry to refrain from receiving the Eucharist when in their dioceses - in other words, excommunicating him - was between Kerry and America's individual bishops, including his own.
"It's in the hands of his ordinary [bishop] - and when his ordinary has spoken and said that politicians should refrain from communion, he's alluding to the fact that someone like Sen. Kerry should not consider themselves part of the Catholic community."
Photo Opportunity
The issue will arise as Kerry campaigns around the nation and continues to insist on publicly receiving communion under the watchful eyes of the media. As a result, Hudson said, some bishops will have to face the issue head-on.
"Some bishops will be very likely be forced to clarify the Catholic faith in the wake of any campaign stops by Sen. Kerry, especially if the human life issue arises."
Hudson left no doubt that in the absence of action by their bishops, individual Catholic priests should still turn Kerry away from Communion. "Absolutely, they should," he said.
St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke has specifically warned Kerry to avoid receiving communion when visiting his archdiocese. In Kerry's home archdiocese, without mentioning him by name, Boston Archbishop Sean O'Malley has said that Catholic politicians who do not vote in line with Church teachings "shouldn't dare come to Communion."
Commenting on Archbishop Burke's instruction to Kerry, Hudson noted that Kerry avoided the confrontation by visiting a black Baptist Church when he was there recently.
Asked if he believed that the bishops individually or together should tell renegade Catholic politicians such as Sen. Kerry that they must not receive communion and that they are excommunicating themselves by so doing, Hudson said: "I think that it's what's happening, little by little. When a bishop says that someone should refrain from receiving communion without using the word excommunication, he's implying it. I think they are beginning to speak up, and Kerry's ordinary has spoken up, although he hasn't specifically mentioned Kerry as has Archbishop Burke."
While observing that the problem was a large issue for the Catholic bishops, Hudson said it also was a problem for the laity.
'Pretending to Be a Catholic'
"My view that this is a huge decisive moment for Catholics in the United States. I hope they will rise to the challenge and refuse to endorse another Catholic politician who is pretending to be a Catholic while rejecting the Church's central moral and social teachings.
"I think that the challenge is bigger for the laity than it has been for the bishops. It's an election. The issue is who's going to vote for the guy.
"I agree on one hand that it's an issue for the bishops, but in a very real sense it's even a bigger issue for the laity. If they show massive support for Kerry, that's going to set back the church in this country for at least a generation, just at a time when a significant number of bishops and laity are beginning to get active on this issue. I am keeping my eyes more focused on the laity and hoping they will reject such Catholic politicians," Hudson said.
"It is a problem for the church - the Church's identity is at stake - the church being the bishops and the laity. If they don't respond to the situation now, the Church will lose credibility."
As NewsMax.com has reported in Vatican Worries About Kerry, the Rev. Thomas Reese, editor of the Jesuit magazine America, is quoted in Time magazine as saying, "All you need is a picture of Kerry going up to the Communion rail and being denied, and you've got a story that'll last for weeks."
But Hudson told NewsMax.com he doubted that will happen. "They [Kerry's staff] are checking it very carefully, everywhere he goes to Mass.
"They're not going to let him be embarrassed, as Al Gore was embarrassed in 2000 when he was planning a campaign stop at Catholic hospital in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and the bishop canceled the visit. After that I don't believe Gore many any more attempts to visit any Catholic hospitals."
Time on Monday quoted a Vatican official, who is American, as saying: "People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there's a problem with John Kerry, and a potential scandal with his apparent profession of his Catholic faith and some of his stances, particularly abortion."
Kerry, who likes to think of himself as JFK, has said: "We have a separation of church and state in this country. As John Kennedy said very clearly, I will be a president who happens to be Catholic, not a Catholic President."
A former altar boy, he has described himself as a "believing and practicing Catholic, married to another believing and practicing Catholic."
He insists he will continue to attend Mass and take Communion.
On Tuesday, the largest abortion rights group in the United States endorsed Kerry for president.
Calling the choice "clear," NARAL Pro-Choice America President Kate Michelman called Kerry "a president pro-choice Americans can rely on" to ensure "Roe vs. Wade remains the law of the land."
Only last week, Kerry, in a rare episode of showing up for work, was among the minority of senators voting against the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which, when President Bush signs it, will finally make it a crime to harm or kill an unborn child, abortions excluded
Sen. John Kerry's defiance of his Church's condemnation of abortion and approval of gay marriage is not only a problem for him and Catholic bishops, but for individual Catholics as well, according to a leading Catholic layman and editor.
He says Catholic priests should refuse to give Holy Communion to Kerry even if their bishops have not specifically warned the senator that he is not to receive Communion.
That demand of excommunication for Kerry is made by Deal Hudson, editor of Crisis magazine, the nation's leading intellectual Catholic journal.
Hudson is a respected Catholic layman, and his views are often sought by national media and government officials, including the Bush White House.
In an exclusive interview with NewsMax.com, Hudson said that the matter of individual bishops ordering Kerry to refrain from receiving the Eucharist when in their dioceses - in other words, excommunicating him - was between Kerry and America's individual bishops, including his own.
"It's in the hands of his ordinary [bishop] - and when his ordinary has spoken and said that politicians should refrain from communion, he's alluding to the fact that someone like Sen. Kerry should not consider themselves part of the Catholic community."
Photo Opportunity
The issue will arise as Kerry campaigns around the nation and continues to insist on publicly receiving communion under the watchful eyes of the media. As a result, Hudson said, some bishops will have to face the issue head-on.
"Some bishops will be very likely be forced to clarify the Catholic faith in the wake of any campaign stops by Sen. Kerry, especially if the human life issue arises."
Hudson left no doubt that in the absence of action by their bishops, individual Catholic priests should still turn Kerry away from Communion. "Absolutely, they should," he said.
St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke has specifically warned Kerry to avoid receiving communion when visiting his archdiocese. In Kerry's home archdiocese, without mentioning him by name, Boston Archbishop Sean O'Malley has said that Catholic politicians who do not vote in line with Church teachings "shouldn't dare come to Communion."
Commenting on Archbishop Burke's instruction to Kerry, Hudson noted that Kerry avoided the confrontation by visiting a black Baptist Church when he was there recently.
Asked if he believed that the bishops individually or together should tell renegade Catholic politicians such as Sen. Kerry that they must not receive communion and that they are excommunicating themselves by so doing, Hudson said: "I think that it's what's happening, little by little. When a bishop says that someone should refrain from receiving communion without using the word excommunication, he's implying it. I think they are beginning to speak up, and Kerry's ordinary has spoken up, although he hasn't specifically mentioned Kerry as has Archbishop Burke."
While observing that the problem was a large issue for the Catholic bishops, Hudson said it also was a problem for the laity.
'Pretending to Be a Catholic'
"My view that this is a huge decisive moment for Catholics in the United States. I hope they will rise to the challenge and refuse to endorse another Catholic politician who is pretending to be a Catholic while rejecting the Church's central moral and social teachings.
"I think that the challenge is bigger for the laity than it has been for the bishops. It's an election. The issue is who's going to vote for the guy.
"I agree on one hand that it's an issue for the bishops, but in a very real sense it's even a bigger issue for the laity. If they show massive support for Kerry, that's going to set back the church in this country for at least a generation, just at a time when a significant number of bishops and laity are beginning to get active on this issue. I am keeping my eyes more focused on the laity and hoping they will reject such Catholic politicians," Hudson said.
"It is a problem for the church - the Church's identity is at stake - the church being the bishops and the laity. If they don't respond to the situation now, the Church will lose credibility."
As NewsMax.com has reported in Vatican Worries About Kerry, the Rev. Thomas Reese, editor of the Jesuit magazine America, is quoted in Time magazine as saying, "All you need is a picture of Kerry going up to the Communion rail and being denied, and you've got a story that'll last for weeks."
But Hudson told NewsMax.com he doubted that will happen. "They [Kerry's staff] are checking it very carefully, everywhere he goes to Mass.
"They're not going to let him be embarrassed, as Al Gore was embarrassed in 2000 when he was planning a campaign stop at Catholic hospital in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and the bishop canceled the visit. After that I don't believe Gore many any more attempts to visit any Catholic hospitals."
Time on Monday quoted a Vatican official, who is American, as saying: "People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there's a problem with John Kerry, and a potential scandal with his apparent profession of his Catholic faith and some of his stances, particularly abortion."
Kerry, who likes to think of himself as JFK, has said: "We have a separation of church and state in this country. As John Kennedy said very clearly, I will be a president who happens to be Catholic, not a Catholic President."
A former altar boy, he has described himself as a "believing and practicing Catholic, married to another believing and practicing Catholic."
He insists he will continue to attend Mass and take Communion.
On Tuesday, the largest abortion rights group in the United States endorsed Kerry for president.
Calling the choice "clear," NARAL Pro-Choice America President Kate Michelman called Kerry "a president pro-choice Americans can rely on" to ensure "Roe vs. Wade remains the law of the land."
Only last week, Kerry, in a rare episode of showing up for work, was among the minority of senators voting against the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which, when President Bush signs it, will finally make it a crime to harm or kill an unborn child, abortions excluded
paxetaurora said:He is Catholic, yes.
Divorced Catholics, contrary to popular thought, CAN receive Communion, even if their marriage has not been annulled. They can only be denied Communion (and many are not) if they REMARRY outside the Church WITHOUT having their first marriage annulled. Although Kerry is remarried, so...
I'm sure this has to do with being pro-choice. Tom Ridge, when he was governor of Pennsylvania, got a lot of the same flak for being pro-choice and Catholic.
Kerry is remarried is he not? He either had it annulled or he should not be receiving communion. No Priest will marry a divorced Catholic without an annulment.
FYI....I had to confess that I was living in sin the first 6 years of my marriage because I did not get permission from the local Bishop to marry outside of the church. I was not to receive communion until my marriage was blessed by the priest.
My parents were not recognized as married the first ten years of their marriage by the church until the annullment as I said.
pax
ONE love, blood, life
I have no idea if he had his first marriage annulled or not. That being said, I'm not sure it should matter.
This is another good reason why legal marriage and religious marriage should be separated--if religious and legal separation are two different things, so should be religious and legal marriage.
This is another good reason why legal marriage and religious marriage should be separated--if religious and legal separation are two different things, so should be religious and legal marriage.
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It matters to people like myself who have a history with the church of being told to be good Catholics and follow the rules.
Confessing that I was living in SIN to a priest that turned out to be an active pedophile sits poorly with me.
It matters because I think the church is out of line with these RULES. Christ did not deny Judas a seat at the last supper.
It matters because Kerry may be allowed communion because of who he is, while the lowest member of the church is told be a good Catholic and do this.
It matters because annulments are not easy to get for the less than rich and famous.
Confessing that I was living in SIN to a priest that turned out to be an active pedophile sits poorly with me.
It matters because I think the church is out of line with these RULES. Christ did not deny Judas a seat at the last supper.
It matters because Kerry may be allowed communion because of who he is, while the lowest member of the church is told be a good Catholic and do this.
It matters because annulments are not easy to get for the less than rich and famous.
Salome
you are what you is
well, they can ban him from communion of course
but they probably wouldn't have done this if he wasn't running for president
why does the church (/ some church leaders) almost always feel the need to get some exposure through negative actions?
couldn't the bishop go save a kittie or something?
but they probably wouldn't have done this if he wasn't running for president
why does the church (/ some church leaders) almost always feel the need to get some exposure through negative actions?
couldn't the bishop go save a kittie or something?
pax
ONE love, blood, life
But you don't have to follow those rules. If you're told to be a good Catholic and play by the rules and you do, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Women are told this all the time: Don't be victims. And yet when we stop being victims and start taking control of our destinies, we're "bitches" or "power-hungry." I think Catholics have been made to feel the same way: When people decide they're not going to take it anymore, they're defamed and told they're "living in sin." But you don't have to buy it. Priests don't make the rules about what's sinful and what isn't; God knows what's in your heart.
For me, it's time that Catholics shed the old Catholic guilt and realize that end of the day, priests are still people--just as vulnerable, fallible, and sinful as the members of their flocks. This is not to defame priests; I've been fortunate to know a number of very good priests, priests who would never dream of denying anyone Communion. But they are not perfect. They are not more moral or more holy than you or I.
I don't think anyone has the right to deny anyone Communion, for any reason. I'm sorry that you and your family had to suffer. But you can choose to not believe in some of those rules. Change has to start from within.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
--Gandhi
Women are told this all the time: Don't be victims. And yet when we stop being victims and start taking control of our destinies, we're "bitches" or "power-hungry." I think Catholics have been made to feel the same way: When people decide they're not going to take it anymore, they're defamed and told they're "living in sin." But you don't have to buy it. Priests don't make the rules about what's sinful and what isn't; God knows what's in your heart.
For me, it's time that Catholics shed the old Catholic guilt and realize that end of the day, priests are still people--just as vulnerable, fallible, and sinful as the members of their flocks. This is not to defame priests; I've been fortunate to know a number of very good priests, priests who would never dream of denying anyone Communion. But they are not perfect. They are not more moral or more holy than you or I.
I don't think anyone has the right to deny anyone Communion, for any reason. I'm sorry that you and your family had to suffer. But you can choose to not believe in some of those rules. Change has to start from within.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
--Gandhi
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
And people are free to leave the Catholic Church and join another denomination.
pax
ONE love, blood, life
true nuff, too.
The Lutheran and Episcopalian liturgies are almost indistinguishable from Roman Catholic ones.
The Lutheran and Episcopalian liturgies are almost indistinguishable from Roman Catholic ones.
MrBrau1
ONE love, blood, life
Kerry should be happy. The Catholic Church is evil.
The Catholic Church should be bankrupted. All of its pedophilic priests should be arrested and imprisoned. All of the bishops et al. that hid the truth should be arrested and imprisoned too, and, guess what, folks? It's common knowledge that the entire church knew about it: bishops, cardinals, and, yes, the Pope. And if you think the pedophiles existed only in the U.S., you're mistaken. So where is the church coming clean on the rest of them? They're not; they're as stubborn and obstructing of justice as all can be, and then they blame *YOU* when the police come knocking on the door for their crimes. Typical Catholic guilt...
The entire Vatican City should be seized as criminal evidence.
Catholics deserve better than the Roman Catholic Church. They should leave it.
Melon
The entire Vatican City should be seized as criminal evidence.
Catholics deserve better than the Roman Catholic Church. They should leave it.Melon
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verte76
Blue Crack Addict
I believe Kerry's first marriage was annulled. Don't quote me on that, however, I'm not sure. I think they should let him take the Eucharist if that's true. As the Good Book says, let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I have a former Catholic friend who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy because of issues with the Vatican. Many Catholics join similar churches because of issues with the Vatican. It makes sense to me if that's what they want to do.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
This whole annullment thing is bullshit anyway. The way it's used in the Catholic Church is just a euphemism for divorce. You can be married and have a bunch of kids and still get an annullment. 
martha said:This whole annullment thing is bullshit anyway. The way it's used in the Catholic Church is just a euphemism for divorce. You can be married and have a bunch of kids and still get an annullment.
Yes. Got money annulment is possible. That was one of the big controversys surrounding Joe Kennedy. He was going to run for Gov. but wanted an annulment after being married for a considerable amount of time and children were involved.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Richard Riordan, the former mayor of LA, had his first marriage annulled after 23 years and five children. He's since been divorced twice. He's not allowed to take Communion either, but he's still tight with Cardinal Mahoney. See, he's loaded and gives the Church expensive presents.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Which, when you think about it, makes the Catholic Church's insanely baroque stance against gay marriage even more ridiculous.
Salome
you are what you is
couldn't agree morepaxetaurora said:
it's every catholics right to question the rules set upon us by people who in the end differ nothing from any of us
personaly I have a hard believing that banning someone from communion will help anyone or could be deemed following up on god's will
on the other hand when the rule exists and the church believe it's a just one then they should follow up on it
but not just when it's someone who gets his head on the tellie every day
at least then I could sort of understand an action like this one
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Dreadsox said:
Not that I want to change the subject but what are grounds for anullment and what's the real difference?
pax
ONE love, blood, life
There are a variety of grounds for annulment, but basically, to qualify for an annulment, one or both parties must be able to demonstrate that one or both parties was/were unfit for marriage in such a way that a "true" marriage never actually got off the ground. Maybe a better way of saying it is that the marriage was not and/or could not have been successful.
This can be based on consent issues (e.g. the marriage was coerced, one party was too young or was mentally incapacitated such that he or she could not consent); mental/emotional issues (e.g. one or both parties was/were significantly mentally ill or had an addiction, and thus could not input into a marriage as two healthy persons can); maturity issues (e.g. one or both parties were not emotionally or sexually mature enough to be married); abuse issues (e.g. one or both parties were emotionally, verbally, physically, or sexually abusive); and probably a few more that I'm leaving out. Incidentally, for what it's worth, children from a marriage that has been annulled are still considered "legitimate."
The difference between divorce and annulment, very simply, is that for Catholics, divorce is strictly a civil dissolution of marriage while annulment is religious dissolution. I believe (although I could be wrong) that most mainline Protestant denominations (your Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.) do not require annulment and accept civil divorce as equivalent to a religious dissolution of the marriage as well. In fact (again, if I am not mistaken), some of these denominations have strictly optional rites of divorce in which formerly married persons can ask forgiveness of each other and wish each other well following divorce. But I'm pretty sure, like I said, that they're optional.
This can be based on consent issues (e.g. the marriage was coerced, one party was too young or was mentally incapacitated such that he or she could not consent); mental/emotional issues (e.g. one or both parties was/were significantly mentally ill or had an addiction, and thus could not input into a marriage as two healthy persons can); maturity issues (e.g. one or both parties were not emotionally or sexually mature enough to be married); abuse issues (e.g. one or both parties were emotionally, verbally, physically, or sexually abusive); and probably a few more that I'm leaving out. Incidentally, for what it's worth, children from a marriage that has been annulled are still considered "legitimate."
The difference between divorce and annulment, very simply, is that for Catholics, divorce is strictly a civil dissolution of marriage while annulment is religious dissolution. I believe (although I could be wrong) that most mainline Protestant denominations (your Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.) do not require annulment and accept civil divorce as equivalent to a religious dissolution of the marriage as well. In fact (again, if I am not mistaken), some of these denominations have strictly optional rites of divorce in which formerly married persons can ask forgiveness of each other and wish each other well following divorce. But I'm pretty sure, like I said, that they're optional.
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martha
Blue Crack Supplier
You edited me, but I still agree.
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