Bishops Want to Ban Kerry from Communion

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Hmmm...lot of bitter angry people here.

I am planning on joining the Catholic Church this Easter and am perfectly happy about it (and this isn't a light decision..spent most of two years and six months in the RCIA class before making up my mind.) I know about all the problems and dissected them and turned them inside and out... all but maybe I just had really good teachers and a really good priest who explained things really well...and to my satisfaction.

I just love to read these kinds of posts though..quite interesting.

dream wanderer
 
1st Congratulations on joining the Church. I hope you are very happy with your decision.

MyDad, the man who decided to marry my mother, and adopted me was supposed to become a priest. On top of the fine education he gave me about the church, I attended parochial school.

Finally, my wife and I attended 2 1/2 years of RCIA classes together. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to do it with her.

I am not sure what you mean about problems being turned inside and out....

I think when you have been married for five+ years and you are told you have to make a confession that you are in a state of sin by violating church law it is a pretty tough thing to swallow. But I did. Then we were told to live in separate rooms as brother and sister for almost 8 weeks until our marriage could be blessed. Then less than a year later we find out the priest we confessed to was molesting children. the church settled on his case, and settled quickly.

My Dad, the man who had been through the seminary on deciding to marry my "divorced mother" no longer received communion for 10 years. I do not think it was easy for them. They took my sister and I to mass EVERY SUNDAY.

Now, some priests do not make their parishoners jump through these hoops. Some priests do show compassion and do either educate or take a different approach. The priest that delt with us educated us. The ONLY reason he married us was the following conversaion.

ME: Father I want to get married on Tuesday night April ____.

FATHER: I can;t marry you yet, you need to have marriage classes.

ME: Father we have been married for the past 5 1/2 years, why do we need classes.

FATHER: I am sorry, but you really need to take pre-cainan9SP) classes.

ME: Father, I have attended the RCIA classes with my wife for two years. WQe made our confession almost 8 weeks ago and have been living as brother and sister as you made us promise. Now you want us to take classes in marriage. Father I am sorry, but if you make us go any longer, I am NOT sure how much longer I am going to be able to keep my word to you. We do not need classes we need to bre married, we have done everything you have asked for the past two years.

FATHER: But....

ME: No buts father, we will be married. Maybe the vow of celibacy is easy for you, but my wife and I will not live as "brother and sister" any longer 8 weeks is enough.

FATHER: We will marry you on Tuesday.

ME: Thank you father.

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I now attend the "Cathlolic Light" church (Episcopal). We have a female preist, the best I have had since my Congregational Minister from College. I am very happy.

The church supports Gay Civil Unions. The parishoners have not yet tackled the supbject of marriage. The parishoners have MUCH MUCH more say in the parish than I have ever encountered in the Catholic Church. My children are THRILLED to attend church now.

I am happier.
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Congrats, dream wanderer! I went through RCIA and became a Catholic a few years back. I'm happy. My parish is blessed with kind and conscientious priests. I know that there are problems. It's a body made up of imperfect beings. There will be jerks and dunderheads in any group of people. The trick is learning the best way to handle these various difficult situations, using your conscience, and doing what suits you. I left the church I was raised in, so I understand why people leave churches and what it's like.
 
Dreadsox said:
I now attend the "Cathlolic Light" church (Episcopal). We have a female preist, the best I have had since my Congregational Minister from College. I am very happy.

The church supports Gay Civil Unions. The parishoners have not yet tackled the supbject of marriage. The parishoners have MUCH MUCH more say in the parish than I have ever encountered in the Catholic Church. My children are THRILLED to attend church now.

I am happier.

The more I learn about Catholicism, the more I wonder if I really was ever "Catholic," in the philosophical sense. For all of my life, up to the last two or three years, I believed that Catholicism was a "liberal religion." I was pleased that they believed that science and religion were compatible, and I was also pleased with their stance against fundamentalism. I also believed that, through the precedent set by medieval Catholic scholars, that it was perfectly "moral" to disagree with church teachings, and still be in communion with the church, as one's "conscience" is supposed to be one's supreme moral guide--not the Vatican. Heck, even in the 1890s, the Vatican even said that liberalism and Catholicism were compatible; thus, in addition to Vatican II reforms, it was better to keep religion and politics separate, as to allow one's conscience to choose the way.

And now? I believe that they were never really sincere about it. I believe that their rejection of fundamentalism was only so they could put their "traditions" above the Bible--hence, if scholars discovered that the original Biblical texts meant something different, they could cry "tradition" to keep things the same. I'm upset with my old religion, not so much as I didn't like what they had to say, as much as I felt that they were betraying their own philosophy. The things that Dreadsox here describes--i.e., how the priest told them, as a married couple, that they were "living in sin"--I find to be totally repugnant, and if you asked me if it were repugnant ten years ago, I would have said the same thing.

I'm ultimately torn, because I find that my parents are part of that Catholic contingent that I can no longer be a part, due to my conscience: the Catholic who only goes to church because they feel they have to, not because they want to. I'm sorry; the Bible says "honor the Sabbath day," not "go to church." Towards the end, I started leaving so angry that I believe I was dishonoring the day by going. I know that there are many Catholics like me or my parents, but I am ultimately disappointed by their silence; they are too afraid to speak up against their hierarchy, since it is "tradition" to shut up and take the abuse.

And, like an abusive spouse, you're brought up to believe that once you're Catholic, you're always Catholic--e.g., you can never really leave. Sadly, I think I fall under that category. I don't know if I will ever be able to "leave" completely, and nor do I think I will ever find solace in organized religion ever again. I will never be atheist; my own faith experiences and feelings leads me to believe that God exists. But to be in a congregation of people that all have similar belief systems? I doubt I'll ever find it.

I can only wonder what life would have been like had I never been brought up or involved in this religion. In the meantime, I am only left to wander aimlessly and, to a degree, in bitterness; but I do believe that religion is forever ruined for me.

Melon
 
Kerry Ignores Reproaches of Some Bishops

BOSTON, April 11 ? Rejecting the admonitions of several national Roman Catholic leaders, Senator John Kerry received communion at Easter services today at the Paulist Center here, a kind of New Age church that describes itself as "a worship community of Christians in the Roman Catholic tradition" and that attracts people drawn to its dedication to "family religious education and social justice."

Mr. Kerry's decision to receive communion represented a challenge to several prominent Catholic bishops, who have become increasingly exasperated with politicians who are Catholic but who deviate from Catholic teaching.

Mr. Kerry, the presumed Democratic presidential nominee, supports abortion rights and stem cell research, both of which are contrary to church teaching. He and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, are regular worshipers at the Paulist Center, which is near their home on Beacon Hill.

When I saw this article, it got me thinking: does the Catholic Church even recognize communion taken outside the Catholic Church (for example, at a church where transubstantiation is not recognized)??
 
Does the Catholic church recognise anything outside the Catholic church? Now I know that sounds cynical, but I'm being serious.

It seems some of the most sacred practices such as marriage, communion, baptism, etc. are not recognised by the Catholic Church unless performed in the Catholic church. Is there anything the Catholic Church recognises that does not have to be done within the Catholic Church?
 
To answer your question BVS, yes, baptism outside of the Catholic Church is recognized by the Church as long as it is "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". When I converted I didn't have to get baptized because I was baptized a Protestant, and that was accepted as "baptism into the Church". I did have to get a baptismal certificate from the church where I was baptized proving I'd been baptized, but that was it. If you married outside of the Church, you can get your marriage "blessed" by the Church. This is potentially thorny. I haven't had any issues with this since I'm not married.
 
verte76 said:
To answer your question BVS, yes, baptism outside of the Catholic Church is recognized by the Church as long as it is "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". When I converted I didn't have to get baptized because I was baptized a Protestant, and that was accepted as "baptism into the Church". I did have to get a baptismal certificate from the church where I was baptized proving I'd been baptized, but that was it. If you married outside of the Church, you can get your marriage "blessed" by the Church. This is potentially thorny. I haven't had any issues with this since I'm not married.

So then why can't protestants take part in communion, I was always told it was because I wasn't baptised Catholic?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Does the Catholic church recognise anything outside the Catholic church? Now I know that sounds cynical, but I'm being serious.

It seems some of the most sacred practices such as marriage, communion, baptism, etc. are not recognised by the Catholic Church unless performed in the Catholic church. Is there anything the Catholic Church recognises that does not have to be done within the Catholic Church?

My marriage was not recognized because I was a Catholic and I married outside of the church without permission. I f I had received permission from the local bishop, I would have been fine. This means I sinned in the eyes of the church. My wife was not in a state of sin because she was not a Catholic to begin with.


As for commuinion, it has to do with transubstanciation. Catholics believe that the bread and whine are actually the body and blood of Christ. This is very different from other churches communion.

Baptism is recognized as Verte said.
 
Dreadsox said:


As for commuinion, it has to do with transubstanciation. Catholics believe that the bread and whine are actually the body and blood of Christ. This is very different from other churches communion.


I was sent to Catholic CCD and to Catholic Mass while growing up, but had no parental guidance. We were just sent, no adult with us. I just can't imagine sending a child off to Church by him/herself. I never got this stuff like transubstantiation. As an adult, I just never felt worthy of going to Church. I hadn't confessed my sins and done 3 "Hail Mary's" (probably 1000+ Hail Mary's by now) to cleanse myself in order to participate in Communion.

I have attended and became a member of a Congregational Church since Sept 02 and these differences just blow my mind! The Pastor says, "All are Welcome" to participate in communion. Of course it took me a few communion days to actually participate because I still couldn't image that I could be allowed to. I also never imagined that I would actually enjoy going to Church on Sunday! (Now if I could only figure out a way to stop my kids from fighting with me about going.....)
 
melon said:


And, like an abusive spouse, you're brought up to believe that once you're Catholic, you're always Catholic--e.g., you can never really leave. Sadly, I think I fall under that category. I don't know if I will ever be able to "leave" completely, and nor do I think I will ever find solace in organized religion ever again. I will never be atheist; my own faith experiences and feelings leads me to believe that God exists. But to be in a congregation of people that all have similar belief systems? I doubt I'll ever find it.


Melon

Melon,

I'm not sure that you will find a congregation of people that all have similar beliefs, but I'm sure you'll find a group of people within a congregation of people that will be close enough. At my Church, the Pastors and a lot of the members are perfect for me, but I know there are members that aren't so "No them, only us" in mind. Anyhow, you should hunt for a bit and see what happens. You may want to start at an Episcopalian church like Dread as it is stuctured closer to the Catholic traditions you are used to.

Give it a try! :)

BostonAnne
 
It's interesting, the problem I had with my church when I was growing up was that, like other Southern Protestant churches I was familiar with at the time, it was segregated as heck. After awhile my parents quit the church they were sending us to because of the politics. It was out in a small Alabama town near Birmingham and there was a freakin' KKK group in the area. (For the record, many integrated Protestant churches were formed in Alabama and the South during this era, but they weren't in my neighborhood, thus I didn't know they were out there). After this I grew up in a mostly secular environment, actually. When I was in college I met some Catholics who were into activist politics. They campaigned against the Klan, racism, and other injustices. I liked what they were doing and was attracted to their church. After a few years I joined their church. So, in terms of my background, the Catholic Church was more inclusive. I have heard that in other parts of the country the reverse is true.
 
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Another Twist

Government telling the church what it should do?

48 Catholic congressmen warn bishops on bigotry

Forty-eight Roman Catholic members of Congress have warned in a letter to Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., that US bishops will revive anti-Catholic bigotry and severely harm the church if they deny Communion to politicians who support abortion rights.
 
I don't think these politicians are necessarily telling the bishops how to run the Church, but rather, are expressing their views as Catholic politicians concerned with the whole issue of getting Catholics elected to public office and the relationship of the Catholic Church to the electorate as a whole. It's the right thing to do to have a civilized and substantive dialogue about the whole thing. Otherwise the issue will just fester and could possibly really hurt the Church and just generally be bad for all Catholics, even conservative ones.
 
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If I were someone that represented someone who made statements concerning Catholic politicians and 48 Cathollic politicians sent me a letter I'd think that some Catholic politicians were trying to make a point. If I received word that those politicians were trying to enact some sort of law against me or my faith, then I would think that the government was making a point. Quoting from the article:

Representative Rosa DeLauro, Democrat of Connecticut, and Representative Nick Lampson, Democrat of Texas, circulated the letter among the 73 Catholic Democrats in the House. It was not circulated among Republicans or in the Senate, because it arose from meetings that began last year among a small number of Catholic Democrats in the House who wanted to talk privately about faith and public service, DeLauro said. "This was not about politics. It was about us and our church and our own faith," she said.

These are individuals who are fellow members of the Catholic faith and were, by the Bishop's letter, singled out because of their beliefs. They wrote a letter expressing their feelings to someone that has the power affect them and their faith. It's a big leap to think that they were trying to convince him that to do something because the government didn't agree with the Bishop's letter.
 
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WTF is going on? Where is the line of personal faith and politics? The God I believe in wouldn't banish you from the table if you wanted to partake in God's blessings. I do not understand this crap.
 
It's 48 members of Congress, not the government. Sure they're powerful people, but they are addressing other people with power, trying to start a dialogue rather than have the situation degenerate into a dispute. It's not the government as a whole. I'd imagine the Administration, for example, may have contacted the bishops when they were nominating their ambassador to the Vatican. Contact between politicians and Church leaders is a common, everyday thing, not some aberration.
 
If individuals wanted to make a personal statement, they would not have sent a collective letter with only members of Congress signing. They are clearly playing on their position in government to apply pressure to the church.
 
They're politicians. Would you rather unsuccessful, meaning unelected, politicians wrote letters instead? Besides, what kind of influence could the government really exert over the Catholic church? If they were really trying to threaten, then it was an empty threat.

I could see your point if the members who wrote the letter weren't Catholic. But they are, and so the issue raised by the Bishop has personal meaning for them as Cathoics and politicians. As to why they sent the letter as a group, again I quote from the same section of the article I quoted earlier, this time with a different section bolded:

Representative Rosa DeLauro, Democrat of Connecticut, and Representative Nick Lampson, Democrat of Texas, circulated the letter among the 73 Catholic Democrats in the House. It was not circulated among Republicans or in the Senate, because it arose from meetings that began last year among a small number of Catholic Democrats in the House who wanted to talk privately about faith and public service, DeLauro said. "This was not about politics. It was about us and our church and our own faith," she said.

Of course the members are aware that their stature may affect the decisions made by the church. But it has less to do with the fact that they're government officials, and more to do with the fact that they hold elevated positions in society. If a similar letter were written by several prominent businesspeople would you accuse big business of trying to influence the church?
 
I agree with you TG. I'd be irked *big time* if these politicians were not Catholic. Then I'd think the government was getting into the affairs of the Church in an inappropriate manner. The whole thing is about being Catholic and in politics and under fire from *their* Church over some of their votes. Since I'm Catholic and I vote, this has relevance for me.
 
verte76 said:
It's interesting, the problem I had with my church when I was growing up was that, like other Southern Protestant churches I was familiar with at the time, it was segregated as heck. After awhile my parents quit the church they were sending us to because of the politics. It was out in a small Alabama town near Birmingham and there was a freakin' KKK group in the area. (For the record, many integrated Protestant churches were formed in Alabama and the South during this era, but they weren't in my neighborhood, thus I didn't know they were out there). After this I grew up in a mostly secular environment, actually. When I was in college I met some Catholics who were into activist politics. They campaigned against the Klan, racism, and other injustices. I liked what they were doing and was attracted to their church. After a few years I joined their church. So, in terms of my background, the Catholic Church was more inclusive. I have heard that in other parts of the country the reverse is true.

verte76, I have thought about your post for awhile now. Though I don't agree with the power structure of the Catholic Church - I agree with your perception of Catholics. While some of the Catholic teachings aren't right for me, the teachings regarding social injustices and caring for the poor and needy are right on. Heck, at my UCC (United Church of Christ) church most of the outreach committee is made up of former Catholics. I attended a series of classes on the religions in America last year and the Catholics were sited as one of the most generous organizations. If I had understood all of that when I was growing up instead of feeling unworthy because I didn't want to say three "Hail Mary's" for forgiveness, who knows what would have happened. Anyhow, I wanted you to know that I have a newfound appreciation for the Catholic religion because of you.
 
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Catholics, as a whole, are very reasonable, and I think that the monolithic power structure really does disillusion many, because they know that, unlike other churches, there is absolutely nothing we can do to change who leads the Church. From the POV of the hierarchy, they are the Church and we're just an audience, rather than active participants.

Perhaps what is sad is that it has become so "monolithic" that many Catholics these days find more solace in other Christian denominations, whether it be the UCC or the Episcopal Church. I often wonder what the future of Catholicism is, and I wonder if it will be any different from when the Southern Baptist Convention was invaded with fundamentalists back in the 1970s, pushing out all the liberal Baptists. Of course, the difference with the Catholic Church versus the SBC is that it isn't up to the congregations; the hierarchy calls all the shots and they alone will determine the course of where Catholicism goes in the coming decades.

*sigh*...I often see why I no longer feel welcome in that religion, for more reasons than one.

Melon
 
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