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Old 04-03-2005, 11:13 PM   #16
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Originally posted by MissVelvetDress_75
Aww thanks for the hugs you sexy stud. Now that we have hugged, we should jump in the sack and go at it so I can piss all those off who can't stand my Catholic self!
make sure it's because you want to have a baby, not because if feels good.
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Old 04-04-2005, 12:46 AM   #17
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Originally posted by joerags
To the church, correct me if I am wrong, but the only purpose of sex is pro-creation. That's it. God gave us the ability to have sex in order to pro-create. Sex should not be viewed as something to indulge in one's sexual desires or to have an orgasm.
Catholic doctrine doesn't forbid enjoying sex; in fact, it regards sexual pleasure as a gift from God. The Church does, however, view procreation as the ultimate purpose of sex. So, accepting the possibility of conception as God's will every time you have sex is--in theory at least--required. Contraception is seen as wrong because it subverts a divinely ordained natural process, not because it somehow makes people enjoy sex more.

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Christ was the son of God who didn't have any sexual urges or desires. He was put on this earth to show human beings the "light," to perform miracles; to spread the word of peace and love among mankind. Not to fall in love and have sex and express his sexural desires. That is what I think the church interprets Christ's life. Thus, priests should not marry, but instead emulate Christ.
I don't know of any Christian denomination, Catholic or otherwise, that rejects the idea that Jesus would have had sexual feelings. And it's certainly not expected that priests have never had them. 'Celibate' just means you don't act on these feelings--not that you're frigid or a eunuch. (It also implies, as verte76 said, that you're--again, in theory--thus free to devote yourself to spiritual matters.)

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If you do commit these sins, there is hope. You can confess. That is the beauty of Christianity. The act of asking for forgiveness and go out and sin no more.
Not sure what you're getting at here...Catholics certainly believe in forgiveness and repentance. They don't, of course, see eye-to-eye with evangelicals on the connection between salvation and faith in Christ, but I'm assuming you know that.

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Again, all of this is my take on the Pope's and the church's positions on these issues. I could be wrong and please correct me if I am.
The problem with your take isn't so much that it's wrong as that it's uninformed. You really do need some familiarity with ancient and medieval philosophy--in particular, with the doctrines of natural law and teleology--in order to understand the intellectual context Catholic doctrine comes from. Otherwise, the tendency is to interpret it the way you did, as a sort of half-baked mishmash of Victorian sexual neuroses and Puritan authoritarianism. I'm neither Catholic nor an expert on Catholic doctrine, but I know enough to know it's considerably more sophisticated than that!
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:13 AM   #18
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Another issue that came up in the medieval church, in the ninth and tenth century when there were all sorts of moral problems going on in the church, was the notion of priests or bishops handing down their positions to their sons. This wasn't acceptable. There were other issues like lay ownership of monasteries. This was one of the darkest periods of the Church's history. This is when the Cluniac reform of the monasteries began, when the issue of ownership of monasteries was slowly resolved and from here the morality problems could be addressed.
Church history is incredibly complex. We recently had a history series at my church, where a nun did an excellent job of putting together a series of lectures. Only God knows how many long, difficult hours it took her to put that stuff together. I studied this stuff in school, but the feeling I have about it is that I'm more aware of how much I don't know than anything else. Needless to say, I get really annoyed at people who assume that Catholics can't do Church history properly.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:28 AM   #19
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Originally posted by yolland
The problem with your take isn't so much that it's wrong as that it's uninformed. You really do need some familiarity with ancient and medieval philosophy--in particular, with the doctrines of natural law and teleology--in order to understand the intellectual context Catholic doctrine comes from. Otherwise, the tendency is to interpret it the way you did, as a sort of half-baked mishmash of Victorian sexual neuroses and Puritan authoritarianism. I'm neither Catholic nor an expert on Catholic doctrine, but I know enough to know it's considerably more sophisticated than that!
Absolutely. The big name here is St. Thomas Aquinas. He's considered the greatest philosopher in the Church. Read a book on medieval philosophy and read about him and the other Scholastics. It also wouldn't hurt to study the Greek philosophies they were influenced by, Aristotle, Plato, and the Stoics.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:34 AM   #20
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the actual biblical position on sex is that its supposed to be enjoyed inside of marriage.
If you feel too tempted to have sex outside of it then get married, is basically what the idea is. And further, the bible says that you are not to deny your spouse your body unless youre praying.

hey baby, while youre on your knees......
*ahem* anyway
So the bible actually says that you should have sex as often as you and your spouse want it to keep you from cheating on them and committing a sin.
Im getting married in july
My view on birth control isnt the popes. I think its a good thing in an overpopulated world where people are getting STD's and having abortions and unwanted children.
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Old 04-04-2005, 08:41 AM   #21
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Re: Birth control, priests and marriage

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Originally posted by joerags
Thought I respect everyone's views on these sensitive issues, it really bothers me and gives me more reason to view Catholics as hypocrites.


On Birth control:
The church says that birth control is wrong. People disagree, in light of the modernization of the world. Okay, fine. But the reason why the church feels it's wrong is because it's a sin. You are denying a life, in the eyes of the church. To the church, correct me if I am wrong, but the only purpose of sex is pro-creation. That's it. God gave us the ability to have sex in order to pro-create. Sex should not be viewed as something to indulge in one's sexual desires or to have an orgasm. I think that is what the church has always preached. True, human beings are horny by nature. But they shouldn't use sex to "get off", only to pro-create. Sex is an expression of two people's emotional love for each other; and the end result should be to have a baby, not to cum because it feels good (that actually goes without saying).

On priests and marriage:
The church feels that priests should not marry. I think the reason is because priests are supposed to emulate Christ. Christ was the son of God who didn't have any sexual urges or desires. He was put on this earth to show human beings the "light," to perform miracles; to spread the word of peace and love among mankind. Not to fall in love and have sex and express his sexural desires. That is what I think the church interprets Christ's life. Thus, priests should not marry, but instead emulate Christ. Again, there is no proof that Jesus did have sex or not, so we will never know.


But the point is, all Catholics should try to lead as sin-free a life as possible. That is why Pope John steadfastly preached these concepts about birth control and sex. The Pope could not stray from these philosophies. The Pope could not change them one bit. Otherwise, the Pope would compromise what God says we should all do: and that is DO NOT SIN.

If you do commit these sins, there is hope. You can confess. That is the beauty of Christianity. The act of asking for forgiveness and go out and sin no more.

In a nutshell, if you want to have sex, wait till you're married. And when you do have sex, make sure it's because you want to have a baby, not because if feels good.

By starting off your thread with your usual line about how Catholics are hypocrites only serves to rile Catholics up. Like MVD, I take offence that you judge Catholics on one person you know. People slip up and make mistakes sometimes, because you're a Catholic doesn't mean you can't put a foot out of line. If the Catholic church can forgive people without judgement, maybe you could hold off on your judgement of people. That fact that you have said "correct me if I am wrong" more than once suggests to me that you don't have a notion about what you're talking about.

I feel that the Catholic Church really needs to wake up to the fact that HIV and STI's are a big problem nowadays. Birth control isn't bad. I also don't think that priests are here to emulate Christ. Christ is Christ. No priest, bishop is here to take his place on Earth. Church leaders are here to teach, guide and direct. There are references to the fact that Jesus' apostles, or some of them, were married and there is also evidence that early priests and bishops were married. The fact that a priest remains celibate is showing that he is dedicating himself to the church and christ.

Your views on sex really boggle me to be honest. As a female catholic I feel that the church really needs to rethink some of their ideas on subjects, and listening to al the discussion about a new pope they have said they may have to start thinking about things like birth control and priests being married in the 21st century because the number of priests in certain countries like France is at an all-time low. People nowadays aren't choosing to get married young, they are having sexual relatiosnhips with more than one person. I don't think there is anything wrong with having sex, provided it is safe and you are of an age were you are able to make mature decisions so if anything may happen like a pregnancy occurs you can cope with the responsiblities that it entails. I will have any children of mine baptised, and brought up in a Catholic faith. I will encourage them as they get older that having sex is something to be thought carefully about and that they should always be careful. In my opinion, sex in a loving relationship, is not a sinful thing. I'd prefer my Catholic child to be safe and happy. Even my Grandmother, who is a very strict Catholic, has given my uncle's step daughter who has jsut had her 2nd baby before she is 20, a lecture on using contraception. I'd be very surprised that if in another 30 years time the Catholic church hasn't changed their view on contraception/ priests.

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But the point is, all Catholics should try to lead as sin-free a life as possible.
That point should go for everyone in society, not just Catholics.
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Old 04-04-2005, 08:50 AM   #22
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Re: Re: Birth control, priests and marriage

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Originally posted by nbcrusader
There is no Biblical basis for this position.
Well, and that position did not come from the Bible either in Roman Catholic theology. It came from Christian stoic philosophy that believed that all emotions, from happiness to sorrow, were evil. Sex and the pleasure that could be derived from it bothered them the most. As such, a whole series of insane restrictions on sex came about, including the "requirement" that all sex create babies. Any "recreational sex" was hedonism, in their view, and such enjoyment of pleasure was clearly Satan's work.

As a result, this is why Catholicism is against everything from masturbation to birth control to homosexuality. The Bible has absolutely nothing to do with it. Married heterosexuals should rejoice that they started allowing the "rhythm method" in the 1930s. Prior to that, consciously having sex with the intent to avoid pregnancy was a mortal sin.

Perhaps you can see why I have issues with Catholicism's sexual mores.

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Old 04-04-2005, 09:10 AM   #23
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Re: Re: Re: Birth control, priests and marriage

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Originally posted by melon
As a result, this is why Catholicism is against everything from masturbation to birth control to homosexuality.
At least with masturbation, they could point to Onan (Genesis 38:9-10). But even that is a misapplication of the passage.
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Old 04-04-2005, 02:13 PM   #24
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Birth control, priests and marriage

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Originally posted by nbcrusader


At least with masturbation, they could point to Onan
.
if they had a free hand
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