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Old 04-08-2008, 11:56 PM   #31
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Originally posted by melon
[B]

It is because science is inherently uninterested in what is not material. You may make some kind of trite, coy slur that science is "materialistic"; but it is what it is.
Right. Science operates in the empirical domain of the observable. It's realm the material or natural world. The supernatural, if it exists, might not be observable by the same methods or bound by the same laws of physics and time that govern us.

Therefore, science alone cannot be atheistic, only, as you say, disinterested. So, the atheism and hostility towards religion now associated with the theory of evolution can only be borne out of ideology, not science.

That was my only point.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:10 AM   #32
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"the Creation is placed in a much larger context of ongoing creations of innumerable inhabited earths with their respective heavens.... <>
I don't argue faith or doctrine unless asked to but this really catches my eye as it seems to fall into the physical universe.
Is there any physical evidence at all (geological, astronomical) to support this?
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:26 AM   #33
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Originally posted by INDY500


I don't argue faith or doctrine unless asked to but this really catches my eye as it seems to fall into the physical universe.
Is there any physical evidence at all (geological, astronomical) to support this?
If you take a leap at things like Stone Hedge, ancient paintings of flying saucers and so forth one could speculate, however we're told that it's really not perinent to man's salvation.

Things that matter are not how many planets God has created or is about to create but Faith in His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and understanding He is both the Messiah and Savior of this world and almost equally important show that faith by and helping our fellow men.

<>
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:53 AM   #34
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Nicely said.

I just find "innumerable inhabited earths" interesting. And not just because Genesis 1:1 reads "the heavens and the earth." Implying only one.
Are the earths, as you understand it, inhabited concurrently or consecutively?
Because the former would signify extraterrestrial life which might be contacted or might be trying to contact us -- while the latter would seem to promise a continued physical, as opposed to spiritual, life beyond death on this earth.

Just curious, fell free to drop the matter if you wish.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:04 AM   #35
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Originally posted by INDY500

So, the atheism and hostility towards religion now associated with the theory of evolution can only be borne out of ideology, not science.


don't you have this backwards? insofar as science is disinterested in religion/theism, whereas religion seems to feel itself to be under siege from science and that the hostility is mostly perceived by the devout, it's not actually there (just disinterest ... which in and of itself might be maddening ... "take me seriously!" a fundamentalist might cry). certainly there are aggressive atheists, but most actual scientists are simply uninterested in science and their disdain for fabrications like Intelligent Design aren't so much due to their theistic claims but to their anti-science, anti-intellectual agendas.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:16 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Nicely said.

I just find "innumerable inhabited earths" interesting. And not just because Genesis 1:1 reads "the heavens and the earth." Implying only one.
Are the earths, as you understand it, inhabited concurrently or consecutively?
Because the former would signify extraterrestrial life which might be contacted or might be trying to contact us -- while the latter would seem to promise a continued physical, as opposed to spiritual, life beyond death on this earth.

Just curious, fell free to drop the matter if you wish.
Don't know, I want to say consecutively as far as our finite understanding is concerned. Also I could surmise is that God is the only God of this earth and that is all we really need to focus on.

I think God would focus on one planet at a time too, for the very simple reason that my drama alone with my heavenly petitions could freeze the universe in it's tracks.



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Old 04-09-2008, 08:40 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Nicely said.

I just find "innumerable inhabited earths" interesting. And not just because Genesis 1:1 reads "the heavens and the earth." Implying only one.
Are the earths, as you understand it, inhabited concurrently or consecutively?
Because the former would signify extraterrestrial life which might be contacted or might be trying to contact us -- while the latter would seem to promise a continued physical, as opposed to spiritual, life beyond death on this earth.

Just curious, fell free to drop the matter if you wish.
Watch "Battlestar Galactica" sometime. It is very loosely based on obscure Mormon views on this subject. The creator of the original 1978 series, Glen A. Larson, is a Mormon himself.

Here's a very detailed essay on the subject, if you're interested:

http://www.michaellorenzen.com/galactica.html
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Watch "Battlestar Galactica" sometime. It is very loosely based on obscure Mormon views on this subject. The creator of the original 1978 series, Glen A. Larson, is a Mormon himself.

Here's a very detailed essay on the subject, if you're interested:

http://www.michaellorenzen.com/galactica.html
Yes and before there was Logan's Run in the 1970s that LDS folk warmed up to, rumored to have a few LDS producers.





Because the LDS are Unorthodox Christians we automatically think outside of the box.

Another example:

One of the most popular self help books of all time is called:

The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R Covey, a devout Mormon.

It's a staple in the business world that CEOs and executives are encouraged to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sev...fective_People

What most people don't realize outside of the LDS religion is that all the ideas or 7 Habits that Covey uses can be found in the Book of Mormon.



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Old 04-09-2008, 10:35 AM   #39
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Originally posted by INDY500



But atheists have taken the theory of evolution -- injected their own philosophies and politics into it -- to create their own 100% materialistic version of Genesis. Which is then masqueraded as 100% science, which it most certainly is not.

Nothing in the theory or science of evolution is hostile or disproves in anyway a supernatural Creation or Design. That is only the atheistic spin on Darwin. Evolutionary science does explain why older fossils show less complex forms and accounts for the unity of all life on earth. But evolution and biology alone can never explain the origin of life, how the unconscious became conscious, human morality or what happens after death.

Not that we shouldn't try anyhow. By all means, let's fill in the details. We're all just seeking the truth right?
You are wrong, evolution provides a mechanism for the origin of new species and of a biological trait like sentience without the need of God. The universe functions as if God does not exist, God doesn't answers the questions at all. You take it as a matter of faith that there is life after death but everything points to the brain being the seat of conciousness and self; when the brain shuts down the person ceases to exist.
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Old 04-09-2008, 04:25 PM   #40
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
[B]You are wrong, evolution provides a mechanism for the origin of new species
Mechanism for microevolution yes, but title aside, did Darwin actually document the "origin" of a single species? Even kick-starting natural selection by intelligent design (Man's in this case) breeders have never been able to breed across lines to create a new species. Lots of spectacular hybrids and interesting polyploids but the end result is still a horse, dog, fly or tomato.
But even so, what if someday we can? Well, evolution still will not provide a mechanism for the origin of life or the uniqueness of Man.
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The universe functions as if God does not exist,
Or it functions exactly like God exists.
From the singularity of the creation of all matter from nothing 15 billion years ago to our anthropic position in it.
Christians have searched for a unified, ordered universe because we believe a rational God would create just such a world. Others believed that the heavens, mountains or seas themselves were deities, or that nature was an illusion and thus inaccessible to inquiry.
Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy has undercut those notions, but not the Christian notion of nature and Man and their origins.
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Old 04-09-2008, 05:37 PM   #41
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Originally posted by INDY500

Or it functions exactly like God exists.



not that A_W can't more than answer for himself, but to an observer of this conversation, it strikes me that he's putting forth science and you're putting forth philosophy (or, more bluntly, wishful [hopeful?] thinking).
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Old 04-09-2008, 07:58 PM   #42
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Originally posted by INDY500
Mechanism for microevolution yes, but title aside, did Darwin actually document the "origin" of a single species? Even kick-starting natural selection by intelligent design (Man's in this case) breeders have never been able to breed across lines to create a new species. Lots of spectacular hybrids and interesting polyploids but the end result is still a horse, dog, fly or tomato.
But even so, what if someday we can? Well, evolution still will not provide a mechanism for the origin of life or the uniqueness of Man.
Your notes from creationist websites overlook the molecular evidence, why would an "intelligent designer" have the divergence of populations and species recorded in DNA? Why is it that the comparative anatomy based phylogenies (trees of life) can be tested against molecular evidence.

Your argument isn't based in reality, it takes this conciliatory tone of respecting evolution in an area that is basically undeniable which is micro-evolution but just junks the aspects that have been established that are hostile to your view of a creator. What of evolutionary developmental biology? that the very genetic tool kit for building animals has been found - and the mechanisms for macroevolutionary change. What of deep time? that the ammount of geological time does allow for the origination of new forms. What about observations of recently separated populations that have diverged through allopatric speciation.
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Or it functions exactly like God exists.
From the singularity of the creation of all matter from nothing 15 billion years ago to our anthropic position in it.
Christians have searched for a unified, ordered universe because we believe a rational God would create just such a world. Others believed that the heavens, mountains or seas themselves were deities, or that nature was an illusion and thus inaccessible to inquiry.
Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy has undercut those notions, but not the Christian notion of nature and Man and their origins. [/B]
No, your religions creation myth is not an accurate match to the real world. It has to become subjective and twisted around as a metaphor to even reconcile with the facts. It doesn't give a description of everything (certainly not the origin of man). The fact that in the post above you just took a stand that God made man and that intelligence and morality are not products of biology just highlights the disconnect.
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Old 04-09-2008, 11:08 PM   #43
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
[B]Your notes from creationist websites
Cheap shot? Or is it a dodge?

Either way, if you think my opinions plagiarized and my beliefs based on myth rather than fact, then I won't take up anymore of your time on the matter.

Did you really think religious faith to be nothing more than a surplus of neurotransmitters in the brain? Yes, I suppose you would.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:22 AM   #44
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not that A_W can't more than answer for himself, but to an observer of this conversation, it strikes me that he's putting forth science and you're putting forth philosophy (or, more bluntly, wishful [hopeful?] thinking).
God created man in His own image. Was this design accomplished through material evolution alone? I'm not convinced, but perhaps. You see, to explain the origin of Man, I don't need evolution to be untrue as much as some need it to be true beyond a doubt.

To this goal, A_W is a fine defender of the faith. His faith.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:28 AM   #45
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Originally posted by INDY500


God created man in His own image. Was this design accomplished through material evolution alone? I'm not convinced, but perhaps. You see, to explain the origin of Man, I don't need evolution to be untrue as much as some need it to be true beyond a doubt.



again, this is philosophy. it is not science.


Quote:
To this goal, A_W is a fine defender of the faith. His faith.
that's a cop out. you cannot say that scientific rationalism is anything like a faith. that's like saying that evolution is "just a theory." it completely misunderstands what science does and does not do.

what i think he's saying is that the "God question" is simply irrelevant. it's unnecessary to the study of science. it's unnecessary to understanding the workings of the universe, or even the secrets of the universe.

it matters to man, but it doesn't matter to that rock over there. science matters to both.
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