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Old 04-07-2008, 12:49 AM   #16
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Oh sure, I think everyone gets goosebumps. Seldom if ever from speeches in my case, but when hiking in really sublime surroundings, occasionally from music, occasionally while meditating...
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Old 04-07-2008, 12:54 AM   #17
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Actually there are some that do not, which leads to other questions, like their belief system, if they're in harmony with their universe etc etc.

The better news is that we're not alone in this kid.


For political speeches try on Jesse Jackson or MLK.



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Old 04-07-2008, 01:09 AM   #18
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Originally posted by melon


This is completely irrelevant, frankly. There is a chemical component to feelings of religiosity that are completely separate from the existence or nonexistence of God. This could help describe, for instance, why there are those who prefer dry, intellectual faiths versus titillating, charismatic faiths.

Since these neurotransmitters help determine whether we are happy or sad, it stands to reason that they could contribute far more to our personality, as well.
I am not sure that it is completely separate, taking an phenomena that has in the past been hoisted as a proof of God and putting it into a natural domain removes the necessity of God. While it can't answer the question of God as a first cause or a guiding hand acting through probabilities it does remove God from the direct workings of the world.

Understanding how the brain work has as little to do with the existence of God as evolutionary biology.
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Old 04-07-2008, 01:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Actually there are some that do not, which leads to other questions, like their belief system, if they're in harmony with their universe etc etc.

The better news is that we're not alone in this kid.


For political speeches try on Jesse Jackson or MLK.



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Now that is offensive, your boxing people that don't feel the same way as being out of kilter with the universe.

If somebody is dull to oratory and deaf to music that doesn't raise questions about their belief system or how their living their life.
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Old 04-07-2008, 04:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Now that is offensive, your boxing people that don't feel the same way as being out of kilter with the universe.

If somebody is dull to oratory and deaf to music that doesn't raise questions about their belief system or how their living their life.
Actually deaf and blind people are the most spiritually sensitive and get the warm fuzzies goosebumps in a higher proportionality to those people with all of there senses functioning properly.

So you can:

a) question why and then look how the ppl regardless of their senses all functioning properly -why they get these warm fuzzy db9goosebumps (deaf ppl feel the beat to music and even dance I hear shock!) and look at their lives and if they are good ppl with a good value system-try connecting the dots that way.

or

b) arbitrarily start picking on them for having warm and fuzzie feelings with goosebumps when you think they shouldn't.

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Old 04-07-2008, 05:31 AM   #21
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Are you ascribing a physiological response from something in the pleasure center of the brain to spiritual sensitivity? Where is the peer reviewed study on the experience of the deaf and blind experience?

If I want to feel more love and I would just take MDMA.
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Old 04-07-2008, 07:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I am not sure that it is completely separate, taking an phenomena that has in the past been hoisted as a proof of God and putting it into a natural domain removes the necessity of God. While it can't answer the question of God as a first cause or a guiding hand acting through probabilities it does remove God from the direct workings of the world.

Understanding how the brain work has as little to do with the existence of God as evolutionary biology.
It's not an all-or-nothing proposition here. If brain chemistry can influence whether one is religious or atheist, it can most certainly influence one's flavor of religiosity too. And keep in mind here, I'm not talking at all about deus ex machina workings here; just the science.

This level of nuance may not be what the scientists here had in mind, but hey...that's science.
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Old 04-07-2008, 09:36 AM   #23
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Oh I am all about the nuance, that last sentence in the quote has a few very deliberate meanings in there and at least one of them rather complementary to you.

I didn't respond to the spectrum of faith on account of a misplaced delete key. But the general gist was going to be that if I was raised Christian, lived in a more religious society then I may well have a faith in God and it would potentially be reinforced by some of those Christian apologetic arguments. Arguments why you should believe in spite of doubts are not out there to cater for a simple faith. People can always find a religion to fit their temperament and it would make sense that it a consequence of how their brains work.

I think one overlooked thing is that if a certain proportion is always lukewarm to belief then there will always be the faithful. Any utopian ideals about forging a purely atheistic society ultimately demand force or a suitable substitute entity for deification. I have no interest in such a society, it demands undesirable means to reach an undesirable end.
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Old 04-07-2008, 01:08 PM   #24
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I think it's funny watching a Darwinian proponent and near agnostic debate the finer points of this subject.

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Old 04-07-2008, 01:09 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


MDMA.
That's fake love brother.

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Old 04-08-2008, 11:24 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I think it's funny watching a Darwinian proponent and near agnostic debate the finer points of this subject.

Naturally funny, to the untrained eye perhaps

But both Melon and I have some comprehension of where the other is coming from (which is basically the same point on this topic). I know that we are both perfectly comfortable with what we believe and would never be as impolite as to expect the other to change.

And isn't it interesting that the atheist in this argument is cast as the Darwinian proponent, are you incapable of understanding that materialism and atheism are separate from the evolutionary biology. Melon by virtue of not being a moron can view evolution as being a means to a divine end. I have the luxury of unbelief and can simply marvel at it's splendor. But pity the poor fool who is so married a simple faith that demands a simple God for being the reason for his simple existence; he could never actually have a stimulating conversation about anything of significance.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:54 PM   #27
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
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And isn't it interesting that the atheist in this argument is cast as the Darwinian proponent, are you incapable of understanding that materialism and atheism are separate from the evolutionary biology.

But atheists have taken the theory of evolution -- injected their own philosophies and politics into it -- to create their own 100% materialistic version of Genesis. Which is then masqueraded as 100% science, which it most certainly is not.

Nothing in the theory or science of evolution is hostile or disproves in anyway a supernatural Creation or Design. That is only the atheistic spin on Darwin. Evolutionary science does explain why older fossils show less complex forms and accounts for the unity of all life on earth. But evolution and biology alone can never explain the origin of life, how the unconscious became conscious, human morality or what happens after death.

Not that we shouldn't try anyhow. By all means, let's fill in the details. We're all just seeking the truth right?
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:00 PM   #28
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Also Darwin was not an Atheist.



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Old 04-08-2008, 11:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
But atheists have taken the theory of evolution -- injected their own philosophies and politics into it -- to create their own 100% materialistic version of Genesis. Which is then masqueraded as 100% science, which it most certainly is not.

Nothing in the theory or science of evolution is hostile or disproves in anyway a supernatural Creation or Design. That is only the atheistic spin on Darwin. Evolutionary science does explain why older fossils show less complex forms and accounts for the unity of all life on earth. But evolution and biology alone can never explain the origin of life, how the unconscious became conscious, human morality or what happens after death.

Not that we shouldn't try anyhow. By all means, let's fill in the details. We're all just seeking the truth right?
Science--and, by extension, evolution--is inherently disinterested in theistic explanations, not because they are hostile to religion (and Darwin, as you have loosely implied, was not hostile to it either; but you also didn't see "God" being plastered all over "The Origin of Species" either). It is because science is inherently uninterested in what is not material. You may make some kind of trite, coy slur that science is "materialistic"; but it is what it is. Religion does not conform to reality any more than science conforms to notions of faith; and it is fully within the rights of man to mix the two privately. That man, however, should always know that they are still two different subjects. Darwin certainly understood it, as did the medieval intellectual giants--many of whom were Christian and Islamic clerics in their own right--before him.
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Naturally funny, to the untrained eye perhaps

But both Melon and I have some comprehension of where the other is coming from (which is basically the same point on this topic). I know that we are both perfectly comfortable with what we believe and would never be as impolite as to expect the other to change.

And isn't it interesting that the atheist in this argument is cast as the Darwinian proponent, are you incapable of understanding that materialism and atheism are separate from the evolutionary biology. Melon by virtue of not being a moron can view evolution as being a means to a divine end. I have the luxury of unbelief and can simply marvel at it's splendor. But pity the poor fool who is so married a simple faith that demands a simple God for being the reason for his simple existence; he could never actually have a stimulating conversation about anything of significance.
Actully you and Melon are more connected at the hip and I'm not bothered.

It may behoove both of you gentleman to know that the LDS faith believe in evolution to a degree more that Orthodox Christianity and was part of Joseph Smith's struggle.

It was revealed to him, by God that the ex nihilo creation was inaccurate, a long held belief of Orthodox Christianity.

Here's what he said it the early 1800s as it was revealed to him regarding matter, the universe and the creation:

God created the universe out of chaos, "which is Element and in which dwells all the glory"

"God is related to space and time, and did not create them from nothing. Change occurs through intelligence. The universe is governed by law. There were two creations: All things were made "spiritually" before they were made "naturally" (Moses 3:5). Through his Son, God is the Creator of multiple worlds. God is the Father of the human spirits that inhabit his creations. His creations have no end".

"the Creation is placed in a much larger context of ongoing creations of innumerable inhabited earths with their respective heavens.... "And worlds without number have I created…for mine own purpose;....... And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works"

Also Joseph Smith was granted knowledge that the whole nebulous idea of the Trintarian doctrine was man made, that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were 3 seperate holy beings or enities united for 1 purpose, another idea refuted that had been forced down the throats of post 1st century Christians giving every believer of God a rubics cube only understanding of their Creator at very best.

Here's what i could find on that subject:

The doctrine of ex nihilo creation has been the traditional Christian explanation. In recent discussion of the subject, many Jewish scholars agreed that the belief in an ex nihilo creation is not to be found before the Hellenistic period, while Christian scholars see no evidence of this doctrine in the Christian church until the end of the second century A.D. The rejection of ex nihilo creation in the teaching of the Latter-day Saints thus accords with the evidence of the earliest understanding of the Creation in ancient Israel and in early Christianity. Similarly, Latter-day Saints have understood such biblical passages as John 9:2 and Jeremiah 1:4-5 to refer to individual premortal existence, with implications for subsequent earthly existence. In support of this, it may be pointed out that various Christians and Christian groups in the early Christian centuries taught the same doctrine (cf. Origen, De principiis 1:7; 2:8; 4:1), and that it is also to be found in Jewish belief of the same period, including Philo (De mutatione nominum 39; De opificio mundi 51; De cherubim 32); in some apocryphal writings (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20; 15:3); and among the Essenes (Josephus, Jewish War 2.8.11, as well as in the Jewish Talmud and Midrash).

So, my evloutionist and agnostic friend ponder those thoughts and get back to me.

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