Billy Graham is a Democrat

[80sU2isBest]

So, again, yes, I feel pretty comfortable saying you're mistaken.

So, let me get this straight, one last time.

You really think that we're more likely to hear veiled insults aimed toward Islam than we are to hear outright, in your face insults aimed at Christians?

If so, let's put it to the test. Keep your eyes out specifically for each in the coming week, then tell me what you've discovered.

 

[80sU2isBest]

well, i have to listen to you -- and others -- tell me how "sinful" and "wrong" i am, and if i speak out agains this, i am somehow insutling your religion.

it's not a perfect world -- you can't expect to feel comfortable at all times, so welcome to how many of us feel pretty much all the time.

i also find it funny -- and this is a general comment, not directed at you 80s -- that some people complain that society's failure to perfectly represent their moral code across all culture and politics is somehow tantamount to religious descrimination.

i return to my post on secularism. the only way you can be authentically religious is in a truly secular society.

Good grief, Irvine, as I told Pax, I said nothing about society in general. I was speaking specifically about these forums. I was responding specifically to a couple of posts that were about insults aimed at Islam.

 

[pax]

I didn't say that. What I did say is that I'm tired of certain Christians complaining of "oppression," "censorship," whatever...when their (narrow-minded, dangerous, oftentimes very unloving) ideology is pretty damn powerful in this country right now.

And I bet if you looked through old threads, when I used to mod, you'd find quite often that I tried to ensure that conservative beliefs, respectfully stated, were defended and protected in FYM.

Veiled insults about Islam? Well, sure, I've seen some. I'm not going to speculate on the balance of Islam insults vs. Christianity insults. But I will pretty much at any insistence that the beliefs of conservative Christians are pilloried more regularly here, or anywhere else in this country, than other beliefs.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Also, when you say that people "insult" Christianity, I think you are talking about a few post-ers who are atheists, and thus have the same opinion of Christianity that they would of Hinduim, Taoism, the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism, whatever.

Does it make any difference who's doing it? I didn't specify.

 

[Irvine511]

Good grief, Irvine, as I told Pax, I said nothing about society in general. I was speaking specifically about these forums. I was responding specifically to a couple of posts that were about insults aimed at Islam.

how is the "insults" you hear about Christianity any different than your belief that the sexual orientation of many members on this list is "wrong" and "sinful"?

 

[financeguy]

Also, when you say that people "insult" Christianity, I think you are talking about a few post-ers who are atheists, and thus have the same opinion of Christianity that they would of Hinduim, Taoism, the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism, whatever.

Or the IPU - the Invisible Pink Unicorn for the uninitiated.

Let us bow down and worship the ineffable mystery of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

 

[echo0001]

how is the "insults" you hear about Christianity any different than your belief that the sexual orientation of many members on this list is "wrong" and "sinful"?

Very good question...

 

[80sU2isBest]

I didn't say that. What I did say is that I'm tired of certain Christians complaining of "oppression," "censorship," whatever...when their (narrow-minded, dangerous, oftentimes very unloving) ideology is pretty damn powerful in this country right now.

And I bet if you looked through old threads, when I used to mod, you'd find quite often that I tried to ensure that conservative beliefs, respectfully stated, were defended and protected in FYM.

Pax, you did say that I was mistaken. In fact, you said it in those words: "you're mistaken".

I also didn't say anything about your mod duties. I fact, I ahve gone on record at least twice saying that you do a fine job. But the fact that you reprimanded then for saying thos ethings doesn't mean they didn't say them.

 

[financeguy]

Pax, you did say that I was mistaken. In fact, you said it in those words: "you're mistaken".

Honestly, do you scan FYM looking for things to get offended at?

 

[80sU2isBest]

how is the "insults" you hear about Christianity any different than your belief that the sexual orientation of many members on this list is "wrong" and "sinful"?

Because that belief is quite simply, a belief. I don't go around shouting it from the rooftops, I do not use it against people. In fact, as you'll recall, I was quite careful to say that I didn't think it was all that simple.

Name me once that I have called anyone in these forums "wrong" and "sinful" because they are gay?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Honestly, do you scan FYM looking for things to get offended at?

Pax said that I was mistaken, then Pax said that she never said I was mistaken. I didn't get offended; I just pointed out to her that was incorrect.

To answer your question:

Not as much as you scan the newspapers looking for reasons to bash Bush.

 

[financeguy]

To answer your question:

Not as much as you scan the newspapers looking for reasons to bash Bush.

It's a tough job but someone's got to do it.

 

[u2bonogirl]

Ive felt at times that there was an unfair balance of criticism at christians as opposed to others
But sometimes it is specified as right wing conservative christianity.
But most of the time I cant tell the difference
Thats okay though I guess. Now I can be lazy and not even step out of my house to be persecuted

 

[pax]

Even if I believed there were all these veiled insults toward Christians being tossed around FYM--which I don't--I feel less sympathy toward the people who enjoy all the comforts and protections of their beliefs currently being in political vogue than I do towards those whose faith is in a minority and being unfairly maligned because of a smaller minority within it.

So let me clarify: Yes, I do believe 80s is mistaken. Although my original intent in posting was to point out that a group of people whose leaders currently enjoy most significant political power in this country, I do believe he's mistaken. Not so much in that a balance of insults in this forum are directed toward Christians more so than toward Muslims, but that the remarks against a particularly nasty brand of Christianity have less impact than those about Muslims.

I've said my peace. Sushi time.

 

[80sU2isBest]

It's a tough job but someone's got to do it.

Ha, well you don't have to work so hard...take a rest every once in a while...kick your shoes off and grab a tall glass of tea and relax...

Because there's plenty of people who will pick up the slack while you're on vacation.

 

[financeguy]

Sushi

Tea

 

[echo0001]

Pax said that I was mistaken, then Pax said that she never said I was mistaken. I didn't get offended; I just pointed out to her that was incorrect.

To answer your question:

Not as much as you scan the newspapers looking for reasons to bash Bush.

If I ever, while scanning a newspaper, found reason to praise Bush, I would do so--and be delighted to suddenly have cause. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen very damn often.

You, however, often seem to take a large offense at every little thing said in this forum that is the tinyest bit critical of Christianity, and you don't seem to want to remember that much of the criticism leveled at Christianity here is not a blanket condemnation, but is directed at fanatics, fundamentalist, and Christian hard-liners.

But then, that's what we all seem to do here--run in circles, scream and shout, and just generally get on each others nerves, so feel free.

 

[u2bonogirl]

I wouldnt consider any of the insults veiled.
People are pretty honest and open about their distaste for certain brands of religion

 

[80sU2isBest]

Even if I believed there were all these veiled insults toward Christians being tossed around FYM--which I don't--

I don't think there are many "veiled" insults aimed at Christianity, either. I think they are, as I said before "outright, in your face".

I

but that the remarks against a particularly nasty brand of Christianity have less impact than those about Muslims.

Makes me wonder what characteristics typify what you would identify as a "particular nasty brand of Christianity".

 

[80sU2isBest]

You, however, often seem to take a large offense at every little thing said in this forum that is the tinyest bit critical of Christianity, and you don't seem to want to remember that much of the criticism leveled at Christianity here is not a blanket condemnation, but is directed at fanatics, fundamentalist, and Christian hard-liners.

Things that are said against Christianity in this forum are never "the tiniest bit critical".

 

[echo0001]

Things that are said against Christianity in this forum are never "the tiniest bit critical".

Some are very (largely) critical. And you respond to those.

Some of them, however, are smaller instances on criticism, and you respond just as vociferously to those.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Some are very (largely) critical. And you respond to those.

Some of them, however, are smaller instances on criticism, and you respond just as vociferously to those.

Maybe so, but this is FYM, after all. If people are allowed to express their opinions against Christianity, there's nothing wrong with me defending Christianity.

 

[echo0001]

But then, that's what we all seem to do here--run in circles, scream and shout, and just generally get on each others nerves, so feel free.

Yep, that's us.

 

[u2bonogirl]

I don't think there are many "veiled" insults aimed at Christianity, either. I think they are, as I said before "outright, in your face".

I

Makes me wonder what characteristics typify what you would identify as a "particular nasty brand of Christianity".

I think shes referring to the judgemental and unloving, which isnt how christians are supposed to be anyway.
Therefore a nasty brand

But I cant put words in her mouth

 

[XHendrix24]

 

[u2bonogirl]

is that meant to be as rude as it comes off?

 

[Irvine511]

yeah, i suppose this is all in how you see it.

80s thinks that because the Bible tells him that homosexuality is wrong and sinful, and he believes this, it can't possibly insulting to gay people for him to state his beliefs.

actually, i do understand that. it's very passive -- it's like, "my mother told me that all Puerto Ricans steal, and while i know many nice Puerto Ricans, my mother has never told me a lie so it's not my fault that i believe that all Puerto Ricans steal."

but anyway ... i find it interesting that we equate criticism with insults. i feel perfectly free to criticize all aspects of Christianity, and people are welcome to battle me every step of the way. there is a huge, huge, HUGE difference, however, between saying, "i think people who take the Bible literally are walking contradictions because Leveticus tells them that homosexualtiy is an abomination and they believe that, yet they turn around and eat shellfish" versus "i think the Bible is a load of crap and anyone who believes in that shit is an idiot."

one is fair, the other is not.

i see nothing on this list, at least from consistent posters, that has ever resembled the latter.

 

[u2bonogirl]

Irvine, Im sorry if youve been hurt by the words of a christian. Especially if Ive hurt you in some way.
The goal is to love, not to reject
I think criticism can be a goood thing It helps each other see what we really believe

 

[financeguy]

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."
--Ann Coulter

That's what I call religious hate.

Most comments on FYM are critical of a certain kind of Christianity but not Christians in general.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, Im sorry if youve been hurt by the words of a christian. Especially if Ive hurt you in some way.
The goal is to love, not to reject
I think criticism can be a goood thing It helps each other see what we really believe

you've never said anything hurtful, no worries.

but i think this gets down to a fundamental issue in the whole homosexuality vs. Christianity debate that pops up so much here and in mass culture (if we can be so crude as to reduce it to such a dichotomy ... life is far, far more complex than that, yet there are political forces on both sides that would like to reduce this into such a simple binary opposition).

a Christian says "i believe homosexuality is wrong because the Bible tells me so" and he believes he is simply stating his beliefs, and he should be free to do so, and that this can't possibly be insulting because he doesn't hate anyone, and might even have gay friends, but he believes it to be wrong because he read it in the Bible, and for someone to take him to task on exactly *why* he believes this is tantamount to someone attacking him for his religious beliefs.

a gay person hears the above message and assumes, then, that Christianity is, by definition, an anti-gay religion and that if the Bible is so clear on the matter, and the gay person knows in his heart of hearts that there is nothing wrong with his sexual orientation, then the Bible itself is plainly wrong (or misinterpreted) based upon obvious, easily understood evidence that one can see every day of the week and that any thinking person would realize that the Bible is wrong on this point and that for a Christian, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, to continue to state that homosexuality is "sinful" or "immoral" then that appears as a mask, an excuse, to be able to express a much deeper prejudice.