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Old 06-08-2004, 02:16 PM   #46
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Again, why does no one hate Elizabeth Dole? She is also well educated, intelligent, employed, US senator, and wife of a politician. She's very successful too, but nobody hates her like they do Hillary, because she doesn't come across as a bitch. I don't believe there is a blanket stereotype on all 'strong' women, it's on a case by case basis. There also isn't a double standard for men, plenty of men with snotty attitudes are hated as well.
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:13 PM   #47
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I've never paid any attention to Elizabeth Dole. She's just not on my radar, she doesn't have Hillary's visibility. If you'll go back and read my post, I used the word 'generally' twice, saying nothing about blanket stereotypes about strong women. But I see the double standard in my own life, especially my work life, all the time.
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:22 PM   #48
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Also keep in mind that the Doles were not the targets of attack journalists financed by millionaires with extreme political beliefs.
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Old 06-08-2004, 06:12 PM   #49
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
If you'll go back and read my post, I used the word 'generally' twice,
I hate that too sorry. I put a disclaimer on it and I still get accused of blanket statements

My point about Elizabeth Dole is, you can't use the 'everyone hates a strong important woman' thing as the reason people hate Hillary because there are other women in her position that no one feels that way about. It's HER, not what she is.

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Originally posted by ThatGuy
Also keep in mind that the Doles were not the targets of attack journalists financed by millionaires with extreme political beliefs.
They had nothing to do with why I don't like her, and I never form my opinion based on anyone else, just as I don't read music reviews. But I will say IMO Hillary's views are the ones that are "extreme."

Though you say they had people working against them, they also had people working FOR them. I remember when they first started running, no one like them. Then all of a sudden they changed, they got more homey, started holding hands, they gave Hillary a more matronly hairdo and clothes, and they seemed more marketable to middle America. I didn't fall for it, I knew it was all an act, but I knew they were being packaged for quick sale. Soon after the election, I saw an article in the newspaper called "The selling of the Clintons" which detailed everything I had noticed and predicted They really did have spin doctors and advisors telling them what to do and not do to make the average American accept them. It was considered a major coup. I was never fooled.

But all politicians are phoneys anyway.
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Old 06-08-2004, 06:25 PM   #50
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


But all politicians are phoneys anyway.
Too true.
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Old 06-08-2004, 06:27 PM   #51
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


But all politicians are phoneys anyway.
Well that we can agree on!
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Old 06-10-2004, 02:35 PM   #52
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i've seen chuck schumer often, i see pete king at least once a month, but i have yet to see hillary once.
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Old 06-10-2004, 02:52 PM   #53
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I admire Hillary greatly. She is independent, well educated, and in social situations very charming. I was able to get to a book signing. There's a great part about Ireland in it.

U2Kitten - Did you read "It Takes a Village". There was no talk of forced daycare or preschool, even though I think all kids need preschool for socialization.

I can't wait to get Clinton's book. I hope I can get it signed also.
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:15 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
To highlight the operative portion of the above:But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

Term limits are such a crock....
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Old 06-13-2004, 04:32 PM   #55
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just to clear up the Bill as VP thing. He cannot be VP because he was Pres for 2 terms. If anything happened to the president he was serving under he could not take the office again because it would be unconstitutional because of already serving two full terms. At least I think that's how it goes.

Too bad, I loved Bill! I think his only mistake was not saying that he did indeed have an affair with Monica and apologizing and just putting the matter behind him. Instead he lied and in the process got himself impeached. BAD BAD BUBBA!!

However, I bet under similar circumstances most of those among us would have lied as well
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Old 06-13-2004, 10:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine

U2Kitten - Did you read "It Takes a Village". There was no talk of forced daycare or preschool, even though I think all kids need preschool for socialization.

I can't wait to get Clinton's book. I hope I can get it signed also.
I've been trying to stay out of here but this was directed at me personally so I will answer.

It wasn't so much in that but other things my sister and I used to read about her and her attitude. I don't think it takes a village, it takes a family, and the idea of having the 'village' raise your kids instead is not something that I like. I am not a fan of preschool. The kids will be in school at 5 anyway, isn't that young enough to join institutionalized socialization? I think so. I think children miss out on a great part of life by never having that free time to play as they please without structure. My preschool years were the happiest of my life, the freedom, the fantasy, imagination in the back yard, my own TV show in front of my parent's mirror, inventing my own coloring books. I think kids lose a bit of their creativity and raw imagination when they are always in a place with organized play and rules. There is plenty of socialization with the other kids on the street, and if there are none, play dates can be made with friends. I love hearing my kids and the ones behind me coming up with original storylines for everything from a flooded ditch to a piece of wood. Their imagination and fantasies flow free and I think that is an important part of the development of the mind, conscience, and personality. If a parent can't be at home, I would prefer seeing a friend or relative watch the kid, or at least a small home daycare setting. Of course every kid is different and some may need it. But I will never believe it's best for everyone.

Here's an interesting story on this topic. I knew a woman once who put her daughter in a daycare preschool program at 3. She cried her eyes out and had a fit every time her mother left her there. The mother's rationale was, if she doesn't learn now she'll cry when she goes to kindergarten! Same thing at 4 year old program, she was miserable and cried constantly. When she went to kindergarten at 5, she loved it and didn't cry. The woman said, see, if I hadn't put her in the 3 and 4 year old preschools she'd have cried in kindergarten! Even if she did, she'd have only had to cry once and had been spared 2 years of emotional distress!

Oh well Scarlet at least we will always agree on one thing- Bono
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Old 06-13-2004, 11:27 PM   #57
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Coming in kind of late, but I wanted to offer a first person POV re: the daycares.

Somebody mentioned daycares in the USSR, etc. I went to such a daycare in an Eastern European country, from the age of 3-6 (may have even been 2 and a half).

First of all, they were not mandatory, although the vast majority of kids went. There were many of them in each city, and you were not forced to attend one in your particular area. You did have to pay a monthly fee (it was not completely free), and you had to pay an additional fee if you wanted the child to have a full lunch. Now, we are talking about some minor change really, but it was not 100% paid for by the state.

As for what it was like, I laugh a little when I read people's thoughts who have never even been to these countries, much less attended such a daycare.

It was actually a lot of fun! It was a very short day, 8-12, and you were pretty much separated into classes, the way schools are. There were 4 grades, and most of it was doing art projects, plays, etc. It really wasn't about formal education at that point nor about communist indoctrination - that came in 1st grade when you were sent to a primary school. Daycares were mostly concerned with having a social setting for the children while parents worked. We would spend tons of time outdoors. Twice a week, we had trips to the main city park, for different things. We would go collect leaves and flowers and dry and press them so we could make cards for mother's day. We'd press our hands into ink to track how we were growing over the four years. We finger painted and learned how to blend watercolours. We would go collect chestnuts and then the city's roasting trucks would come around and we'd have a roast on Fridays. We made flower garlands sometimes and we'd also make clay animals and other things and then sent them away to get baked. It was actually a really cool experience.

I still remember when Chernobyl happened, I think I was in my last year of daycare and we could not go outside to the parks for several months because they were concerned about radiation. I don't know why this has stuck with me, but it has.

Yes, the children were very disciplined and well behaved. We'd walk to the park in twos, and you'd have 4 year old in better formation than adult soldiers, I kid you not. In Communism, the teacher was God, and the kids followed along. We had no problems with any sort of school violence or talking back, that was simply unthinkable. You knew your place in the world right from the start.

What was fun is that when you started 1st grade, you were guaranteed to know at least a handful of people from your daycare. There would be 3-4 first grade classes and you really made a lot more friends because you already had a basis for knowing many of them. Your parents knew each other and there was very much the "village" mentality there. You always had someone to watch you, always had someone to walk home with, always had someone to pitch in. It's very much a climate where the individual is worth nothing except in the context of what he can provide for his community. It's not the best, it's not the worst, it just is. But you have to understand that millions of us lived this way for many years and we did not feel oppressed. I would not want to go back to Communism, because it was oppressive on other ways - religion, political freedom, private ownership, etc. But there were also some very good things about it and you may feel what you wish about the daycare, but as someone who is a product of it, I would not have wanted it any other way. It was a good few years, definitely.
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Old 06-14-2004, 06:40 AM   #58
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Anitram what country are you from? Did they not put red scarves on you and make you salute the 'party' and teach you that Americans are bad and brainwash you? That's what they told us here. I mean as a little kid in school they'd tell us that, you'd see snippets of video of it on TV and I was scared of those kids, and felt sorry for them.

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It's very much a climate where the individual is worth nothing except in the context of what he can provide for his community.
This is the concept that I am so much against, anywhere. It's like you have to be part of a 'group' and are worth nothing on your own. Even some schools here now seem to be trying to ingrain a 'worker bee' mentality, and the attitude that working together as a group is more important than what you know or how you do it. Anytime people try to stamp out or discourage individuality or independent thought, I believe there's something wrong. It's like they don't want you to be different, you have to be like everyone else, like 'they' want you to be, because people who are different think for themselves, get ideas that oppose them, and try to change things. That's why all the intellectuals were killed in Cambodia in the 70's. I don't like it.
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Old 06-14-2004, 05:48 PM   #59
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Of course they told you that in America - the American propaganda against Communism was just as honest as the Russian propaganda for Communism.

I grew up in the former YU, which was a Communist country, but apart from the Soviet Bloc (theoretically speaking anyway). Nobody in our schools told us Americans were bad. I never, ever heard anything like that taught. But you have to understand that America had a very specific way of dealing with Communist countries - pumping money into some for strategic purposes (ie. the YU) and demonizing others. We didn't get brainwashed about the West really, nobody talked about it much in schools, most probably because everyone wanted to go to the west, LOL.

We never had to wear the red scarves except at a ceremony in first grade, and then if your school participated in a ceremony celebrating a public holiday. So, for example, if you had to sing in a choir for your country's July 4th equivalent, you'd have to wear the scarf, but otherwise you didn't. I even remember every time we had to dig it up, my mother would panic for 3 days because we'd throw it in the basement or something and had no idea where it was.

There were some good things about it too, though. You may not agree with the village mentality, but the support system there is incredible. Now you have kids here in North America who have never met their fathers, whose mothers work 2 jobs and never see them. That never happened in Eastern Europe. There was a huge net of people to fall back on. Nobody paid anybody for babysitting. And we had no such thing as obesity in childhood, because there was a tradition of sport in our schools, and you can bet those kids were nice and fit.

Education was completely free, daycare was free, medical and dental coverage was free, all vaccinations and prescriptions were free, everything.

If you were the poorest child in the city, or the child of the president, you'd write the exam to get into a university, and then you'd both attend it for free. In the West, we perpetuate the cycle of poverty continuously.

Don't let those "educational" videos educate you about how life was there. Talk to the people who lived through it. I think most, if not all will tell you they would prefer not to live in Communism either, but you have to understand, that is the only way of life millions of us knew. And it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't as horrible as your media and politicians would like you to believe. Those videos you watched may have been in context or may have not. They were certainly excuses to go interfere in Latin America, to go kill a couple of million Vietnamese peasants, bomb Cambodia and so on.
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Old 06-14-2004, 07:39 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten


I strongly dislike her because of her 'it takes a village' thing and her attitude that all children should be forced into state run daycare at a young age. I'm not talking just about parents who choose that, there was a time when she was advocating this as the best way, and even made comments that most American parents weren't fit to raise their own kids. It was her "baking cookies" statement about stay at home Moms that really drew my hatred most. I'm a stay at home Mom, I take offense to the idea that only certain people are qualified to raise children. I believe she was advocating a type of youth program like existed in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany where kids were put in mandatory institionalizied settings very young and educated and raised the 'right' way by people the 'right' side of government approved. Even if they could go home at night, the parents are not supposed to be the main influence in their develpment. So all parents aren't perfect. I'd take them over the government except in very extreme cases of abuse.

I'm sure you are an excellent mother.

However...

H. Clinton's comments have merit - most people should NOT be raising children. Some "welfare moms" have children just so that they can continue to be on welfare! While some people use welfare as it was designed, most abuse the system to the best of their abilities.

Also, many parents simply don't know how to raise children. I would say this is true for generations past as well as present - but it's only in the present that someone dares to say that something should be done. Hitting or spanking children was accepted years ago - it's frowned on now, but we hear about child abuse cases more than ever.

Also, given the number of single parent households, a single parent simply can't be there for his/her children. Even in double parent houses, the cost of living is such that often both parents have to work - and this further limits the amount of time parents can spend with children.

What you are doing, U2Kitten, is ideal. And more and more people are trying to do just that - return to a single income household and "do with less". Latch-key kids are not a way to raise a family. But as I wrote, many people can't or won't dedicate the time to their children. Hence, H. Clinton's proposal has merit. Clearly this program is not meant for you - so take no offense at H. Clinton's words. Rather, view it from the perspective of helping a child. Would you rather see a child in a government daycare or out on the streets after school? Would you rather see a child learn at least the basics in a government daycare or see the child play video games or watch TV all day because mom is too busy? Would you rather see the kids stuck with an aging grandparent or left alone so mom could work, or would you prefer to see them in a more supervised government daycare?

The government daycare is not for all, but the idea has merit.

As for the topic, B. Clinton cannot be VP - silly CNN notion.

And H. Clinton said she would turn down the offer if it was given.
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