Beware these so called "Christians"!!! - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-13-2006, 10:39 AM   #121
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:19 PM
I agree. We should have a thread like that. Just say what you are and what you believe in simple terms.


On one hand though, it's kind of sad that it's so "refreshing" to read that a Christian is tolerant and accepting. That should be the standard, IMO. The "aggressive Christians" need to just....go away.
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 06-13-2006, 01:44 PM   #122
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
We need BonosSaint in here. She'll sort this one out!

You're all doing beautifully. I'm enjoying this immensely. I'm also enjoying sitting it out. But thank you.
__________________

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-15-2006, 09:51 PM   #123
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


On one hand though, it's kind of sad that it's so "refreshing" to read that a Christian is tolerant and accepting. That should be the standard, IMO.
My thoughts exactly. It's just really sad how this highly politicized Christianity has just taken over. During my flight over from Saipan I thought a lot about this (I had a lot of time, 25 hours to be precise). . .couldn't get this thread out of my mind. It just really bothers me that Christianity has become so twisted. (Course this is assuming "my" version is the right one. . .I'm sure there are those Christians who would say I'M the one who's twisted. Guess that's the point of this thread, huh). Every time I visit the States, I see it. . .when I go into a Christian bookstore and see a life size cut out of GWB and the American flag festooned all over the place, and I wonder "What does this have to do with Jesus? What does this have to do with believers in Africa and in China? Are they any less "Christian" because they're not American?"

It's really sickening. . .but anyway.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 06-15-2006, 10:14 PM   #124
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
What denomination are you, may I ask?
I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. I should be clear though that my denomination IS very conservative (If you've ever read my Journal you've probably figured that out already what with all my various run-ins with my pastor). I'm probably a little more. . .maybe a lot more "progressive" than my church's standard line. Still I'd say my church is NOT "aggressive" and I can't tell you happy that makes me--staying out of politics really helps a lot. That, and our denomination has always been "different" from most other Christian denominations (one of the biggest and most glaring differences is that we worship on Saturday rather than Sunday) so I guess we're a little more sympathetic to those being "ransacked" by the "Moral Majority"

Even so, I'm still pretty conservative in some of my views. Irvine can tell you that I believe in the literal 6 day creation and all that. I believe we went a few rounds on that topic a few threads back.

Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
The last part of where we remain perhaps to disagree is interesting. I do think all life is equal. I dont think any one person is every more worthwhile of anything than another. You get hypothetical scenarios where it's "women and children first" and that as an example has always got me thinking. I used to believe it was made up by men in an era where gentlemanly behaviour was the order of the day. To be honest, I'm not really sure why it came to be. I suspect a combination of many things - children and women being the weaker, noble or gentlemanly reasonings, a Darwinist philosophy of preserving life and therefore those crucial to ensuring it's existance, perhaps none of those? Am I sidetracking again? Sorry, lol. I have a migraine-ish kind of headache and I can only apologise if this makes very little sense...So yeah, we're all equal. I try to believe always that every person put on this earth deserves as much as the next person regardless of colour and race and so on. I try to extend that to the things which really seperate us too; things like intelligence, natural skills or abilities. If you took a group of people and put them on a sinking raft, how would you organise a heirarchy? And then if the people on the raft were a teenage girl with an intellectual disability, a middle aged alcoholic man with a propensity to violence, a supremely racist Egyptian man, a lesbian who wanted children, a 30 year old very attractive female lawyer who didn't want children, a fit and healthy 25 year old man who wanted children but was sterile? Then lets say you can only save 4 of them. I reckon we've all done hypotheticals like this. We all get told when we participate that there is no right and wrong answer. I dont know whether to love or hate these. They are life. We ignore equality which any kind hearted soul will strive for in their lives and we begin to weigh up each person's benefits and disadvantages. We forget that the alcoholic is as worthy as the young girl with an intellectual disability and we treat them as different people because of what occurs in their life. I think what makes humans different is what we do and what we can do, but it never undoes or voids someone's worth. Myself and a violent burgular in jail are equal still. He just chose to live his life as he did. Or society dictated. Whichever (that debate is for another thread, lol). Lets make this man a violent burgular who likes to shoot his victims, and suddenly half the population would happily see him put on death row. Half the population who ordinarily cry 'Equality! Yes! Love that equality'. Um, no you dont, dudes. You want equality when it doesn't stand out too far from your own definition of comfort and when someone else's freedom of choice leads them to do things which are harmful and dangerous. Or when it is an apparent threat to one's sense of identity (like gay marriage) or when someone's colour or race might dirty up someone's Aryan Wonderland, and so on. It just goes on. Anyway, my point....lol. Yeah, I don't know if I necessarily call it flawed. Maybe I do, I'm not sure. I do think that some people make flawed choices. Some people live flawed lives. Some people live lives which dont have as much advantage as another. We're born equal but we allow our actions and decisions to seperate us. We think it does seperate us. I question very much whether it does.

I really dont know if I've even got near what you were talking about, lol. But you have a holiday to go on. We need BonosSaint in here. She'll sort this one out! [/B]
That scenario with the people in the boat is absolutely fascinating. I've actually not heard it before. Interesting parlor game. . .I'll have to give it some thought.

I know what you mean about the death penalty thing though. I found interesing (and not a little hypocritical) how a few years back when Carla Faye Tucker (the lady who stabbed some people to death with an ice pick while high on drugs and became a Christian while on death row) was up for execution, and all these conservative Christians who are normally gung ho for the death penalty were pleading for her pardon. Really reflects the double standard you describe.

I think I got your point though. . .I think we ARE all equal, and I don't think our types of flaws seperate us, or if they do, it's not in the way that we think. For example, Jesus seemed to really give all the "obviously" flawed people--the people society agreed were "sinners" a pass--while he was really tough on the so-called religous people--the "holier than thou" types. Which maybe suggests God's "hierarchy" of sins. I guess my basic theology "human nature" is that every person is basically good AND basically bad. The potential for both is there.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 06-16-2006, 07:00 AM   #125
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 10:19 PM
I think that secularists would agree that humans have flaws and are capable of the smallest pettinesses to the most abominable atrocities. I think the argument would come as to whether humanity is inherently flawed due to spiritual void, or original sin, if you prefer.

Secularists might argue that the human condition encompasses all human behavior--both the sublime and the horrific and everything in between and this is due solely to humans, neither God nor Devil, and the fact that many religions concentrate on the flaws as being representative of the human condition and the
higher behaviors as being indicative of God's presence might drive a bit of a wedge in. I won't speak for anyone else here, but I suspect that might weigh in in some of the arguments.

One of the basic divides between secularists and some Christians (and I'm only limiting myself to Christian here since it is the religion with which I am most familiar) is who is socially ascendant--human or Deity-- here and now (any afterlife will take care of itself).

I don't think maycocksean and I disagree much at all here, with possible exception of original sin, although he may call it something different.

I find the struggle between man and God (fictional or not) compelling in all its dynamic. However, I think it says more about humanity (good and bad) than it does about God.

(Last time I thought seriously about the lifeboat situation--I think there were different people in my hypothetical lifeboat--I was
paralyzed to the point of covering my head with a blanket. I avoid that bit of philosophical discourse now, lol.)
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-16-2006, 07:24 AM   #126
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 01:19 PM
I dont know a great deal about what seperates denominations. I had a vague idea that Seventh Day'ers were rather conservative, but was never sure how. I find it somewhat odd that we dont vehemently disagree, yet you're a member of a conservative denomination and I've always found they are the individuals I struggle most to find anything to agree on.

PS, I must clarify, I made up the individuals in the hypothetical. I couldn't remember exactly who was in them, but followed the basic rule of a mixture of people with weaknesses and faults to varying degrees and of differing importance to different people, etc. I will work out one day if I like or dislike them. I think I might dislike them due to what I believe of people, but ironically like them because they prove a point for me.

Anyhow..
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 06-16-2006, 07:49 PM   #127
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
I think that secularists would agree that humans have flaws and are capable of the smallest pettinesses to the most abominable atrocities. I think the argument would come as to whether humanity is inherently flawed due to spiritual void, or original sin, if you prefer.

Secularists might argue that the human condition encompasses all human behavior--both the sublime and the horrific and everything in between and this is due solely to humans, neither God nor Devil, and the fact that many religions concentrate on the flaws as being representative of the human condition and the
higher behaviors as being indicative of God's presence might drive a bit of a wedge in. I won't speak for anyone else here, but I suspect that might weigh in in some of the arguments.

One of the basic divides between secularists and some Christians (and I'm only limiting myself to Christian here since it is the religion with which I am most familiar) is who is socially ascendant--human or Deity-- here and now (any afterlife will take care of itself).

I don't think maycocksean and I disagree much at all here, with possible exception of original sin, although he may call it something different.

I find the struggle between man and God (fictional or not) compelling in all its dynamic. However, I think it says more about humanity (good and bad) than it does about God.

(Last time I thought seriously about the lifeboat situation--I think there were different people in my hypothetical lifeboat--I was
paralyzed to the point of covering my head with a blanket. I avoid that bit of philosophical discourse now, lol.)
It's really amazing the extent to which your denominational heritage can make you completely clueless about what other Christians are teaching. Obviously, I need to learn more.

This concept of "orignal sin." I've heard of it, but I'm not sure what it is. My faith tradition just doesn't use that term. Is it somehow different from "present sin"? I've even seen it captitalized. Again, perhaps someone can enlighten me.

I can see the problem with the question of "who is socially ascendent, man or God?" I think Christians see God as "higher" than man. I can also see why an idea that theoretically would place as all equal under God actually often does the opposite. It goes something like this. "God is higher than man. I am connected to God, and you are not. Therefore I am higher than you." I think it was A_Wanderer that pointed out how religion has historically been used to "control the masses." If you can claim some special connection to the Almighty that others don't have, that automatically puts you "above them." Christ's disciples seemed to sense this, as they were all vying to be first in "His Kingdom." Course he set them straight. But His disciples today, many of us sadly, are still lusting over that potential power.

I think your take on the "human nature" question is accurate. But like I said, our own take on what are the "sins" and what are the "higher behaviors" that supposedly indicate our "closeness" to God are often flawed. But again, it becomes a convenient way to elevate oneself above others. The thinking goes "You are sinner because you do x, y, and z, while I live a "holy life" and are therefore closer to God." I think the idea behind Christianity is that we're supposed to recognize our own "flawed nature" not self-righteously point out the flawed nature of everyone else.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 06-16-2006, 08:14 PM   #128
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I dont know a great deal about what seperates denominations. I had a vague idea that Seventh Day'ers were rather conservative, but was never sure how. I find it somewhat odd that we dont vehemently disagree, yet you're a member of a conservative denomination and I've always found they are the individuals I struggle most to find anything to agree on.

I'm sure we could find plenty to disagree about

Seriously, though. Perhaps what makes it hard to agree with conservatives on so many points is that you can't really TALK to them. While you see different points of view, the conservative sees "right and wrong." My wife and I talk about how this happens in our church all the time (obviously we're more liberal but we live outside the U.S. where our denominational community is much more conservative). We'll look at various issues and we'll say--oh, it's a different cultural viewpoint, or different interpretation and our conservative counterparts will respond, with "no, it's Biblical." And that's the end of that. It's very hard to talk to people who are convinced "God is on my side."

I think the reason I'm able to "talk" and still be conservative is just one minor variation--"I think I'm right, I think this is Biblical, but. . .I could be wrong." Just that variation, at least for me, means we can talk.

As to why the Seventh-day Adventist Church is conservative it's because we believe in a fairly literal interpretation of the Bible. That's pretty much the defintion of a fundamentalist, I'm afraid.
In fact it's why we don't believe in hell. We believe eternal hell is a man-made invention that is "un-Biblical (I know there are scriptures that talk about hell, but lwe believe they are misinterpreted. I know, I know that's what ALL Christians say about those not in their denomination, but nonetheless. . .). It's also why we worship on Saturday (Sunday not Biblical).

So yeah, pretty conservative.

But here's the interesting thing. A lot of the "hot button" issues for the more visible Fundamentalist Christians are virtually "non-issues" with us, even though I'm sure if the church were to forced to "take a position" they'd land on the same side as the other conservative denominations. Issues like abortion, homosexuality that other Christians are all charged up about aren't really being harped on in my faith tradition. Members are pretty much left to make their own decisions about things like that, I think. For example with homosexuality, there is an organization of Seventh-day Adventist Gays and Lesbians called Adventist Kinship. It's not sanctioned by our church, I'm sure of that but then they're not actively being persecuted either. I don't know. . . maybe they are but I haven't heard about it. And a friend of mine who works at our missionary dental clinic (who is not Seventh-day Adventist but is a lesbian) sends her little daughter to our church many Saturdays because her partner's family is Seventh-day Adventist and yet were more accepting of them than her family was. So she has this "good vibe" about our church.

Which is weird because I know the church's official "stance" is definitely not "open" to homosexuality.

Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble here. . .

So anyway, that's my background.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 06-17-2006, 06:20 AM   #129
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 10:19 PM
"Original sin is the doctrine, shared in one form or another by most Christian churches, that the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (called "the Fall"), changed or damaged human nature, such that all human beings since then are innately predisposed to sin, and are powerless to overcome this predisposition without divine intervention. ..."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

And varying other like definitions on the web.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-17-2006, 10:03 PM   #130
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
"Original sin is the doctrine, shared in one form or another by most Christian churches, that the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (called "the Fall"), changed or damaged human nature, such that all human beings since then are innately predisposed to sin, and are powerless to overcome this predisposition without divine intervention. ..."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

And varying other like definitions on the web.
Yeah, I looked it up too right after I posted too. And yeah, I do believe that.

Just the terminology I'm not used to.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com