Beware these so called "Christians"!!! - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-07-2006, 02:35 PM   #46
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 04:16 PM
I don't want to nitpick, but what does it mean to "follow Christ"?

Do you mean somebody believes that Christ is God or Son of God or one and the same?

Do we exclude then the first 300 years of Christians who up until the council of Nicaea weren't even sure how to define Christ?

I honestly don't understand what 'following Christ' means in the context you laid out.
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 02:44 PM   #47
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I don't want to nitpick, but what does it mean to "follow Christ"?

Do you mean somebody believes that Christ is God or Son of God or one and the same?

Any of those. Saying one way or the other gets into theological specifics that are more indicative of different denominations, not Christianity in general.
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:19 PM   #48
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Any of those. Saying one way or the other gets into theological specifics that are more indicative of different denominations, not Christianity in general.


so, again, it's an individual understanding.

it's meaningless in a collective context. it's meaningless to say "Christians follow Christ" but meaningful to say "i am a Christian because i follow Christ."
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:44 PM   #49
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


it's meaningless in a collective context. it's meaningless to say "Christians follow Christ" but meaningful to say "i am a Christian because i follow Christ."
Yep, but believing any one of those interpretations of the nature of Christ/Holy Trinity still makes you a Christian. I know which one I'd argue is theologically correct, but I can't say someone believing it another way is not a Christian. They're following still Christ, end of story. What the "following" entails is the subjective part.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:58 PM   #50
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 04:16 PM
What about Mormons then?
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:05 PM   #51
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Yep, but believing any one of those interpretations of the nature of Christ/Holy Trinity still makes you a Christian. I know which one I'd argue is theologically correct, but I can't say someone believing it another way is not a Christian. They're following still Christ, end of story. What the "following" entails is the subjective part.


i totally understand, though i don't think everyone would agree with you -- i think many would say that there is one way to be a christian, and that's their way.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:11 PM   #52
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
What about Mormons then?
Christian. I don't agree with them, but if that's truly how they interpret the nature of Jesus Christ, that's their business. Again, that difference is what defines the LDS Church against other denominations, not Christianity.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:16 PM   #53
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 04:16 PM
But it isn't about how they interpret the nature of Christ, it's about a completely different narrative that the remaining Christians follow.

If I were to call myself Christ today and some people followed me, would they be Christians?

Similarly with the Mormons, if you believe Christ was in South America, the rest of Christianity does not hold that was Christ at all so how do you reconcile the two?

It is not a simple denominational issue in this instance.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 05:55 PM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 09:16 PM
Jesus seemed to set down His core values pretty clearly: love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as ones'self -- an interdependent relationship that cannot exist without the other. In the first book of John, the writer seems to indicate that you can't say you love God if you hate your neighbor, and vice-versa.

I'm not sure Jesus would know what the phrase "being a Christian" meant, since Jesus did not come to set up a new religion or a new faith system. He came to establish a new way of relating to God through Himself that would bring a broader, more inclusive Kingdom that included the poor, the Gentiles, the lepers, the ignored. The early Christians, rather than referring to a new religion or a new institution, referred to themselves most frequently as "followers of the way" (Jesus famously identified himself as the way, the truth and the life).

It seems to me that people who fight to keep others out, don't meet either criteria for being followers of the way.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 06-07-2006, 08:16 PM   #55
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Jesus seemed to set down His core values pretty clearly: love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as ones'self -- an interdependent relationship that cannot exist without the other. In the first book of John, the writer seems to indicate that you can't say you love God if you hate your neighbor, and vice-versa.

I'm not sure Jesus would know what the phrase "being a Christian" meant, since Jesus did not come to set up a new religion or a new faith system. He came to establish a new way of relating to God through Himself that would bring a broader, more inclusive Kingdom that included the poor, the Gentiles, the lepers, the ignored. The early Christians, rather than referring to a new religion or a new institution, referred to themselves most frequently as "followers of the way" (Jesus famously identified himself as the way, the truth and the life).

It seems to me that people who fight to keep others out, don't meet either criteria for being followers of the way.


sounds good to me -- but can Christianity tolerate such a DIY criteria?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 12:44 AM   #56
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 09:16 PM
I'm starting to think that I could care less about what "Christianity" as a whole can tolerate, since there are so many factions thereof, as well as wolves in sheep clothing.

There's a really interesting book I've been reading lately called "A New Kind of Christian". Worth reading. One of the chapter titles: "It's None of Your Business Who's Going to Hell."
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 01:16 AM   #57
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
It seems to me that people who fight to keep others out, don't meet either criteria for being followers of the way.
who would you classify as others?
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 01:46 AM   #58
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
"It's None of Your Business Who's Going to Hell."
I love this!!!

I should read this and then send it to Jerry, George, Pat, Coulter, The Westboro Church and so so many others...
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 01:49 AM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 04:16 PM
"Following Christ" means that you try to live your life according to his teachings and the Bible, and you develop a relationship with him and live by the Holy Spirit. It's about "dying to self" and allowing Christ to take over your life. "I must decrease so he can increase" is the saying.

We can have a relationship with him after we admit we're flawed and he's not, and that he died in our place so we wouldn't have to pay the penalty for our screw-ups. We all screw up -- I tend to jack things up on a regular basis. The cool thing is because I've accepted Christ as my Lord, when I stand before God the Father and I'm held accountable for my crap, he'll see Christ and his perfect life instead. That's because of the work of the cross, which is beautifully explained in "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

Although you're set aside, or "saved" from your sins as they say, once you accept Christ, you're on your way to heaven. (i.e. the criminal who was crucified with Christ that we hear about in the Gospels.)

However, eternity is now.

A relationship is what God wants with us. I myself strive (and too often fail) to do my part in the relationship (God, being God, always does his part.) I try to begin my days with prayer (both talking to and listening) and with some Scripture reading and meditation. I try to live my days in love, because God is love and to love another is to see the face of God.

It's funny that a relationship with God is easier than most relationships with humans on one hand, but more difficult in other aspects. It's worth it though. When I'm focused on him and I'm seeking to live out his will for my life, my life is lived to another degree. But it's because of him living in me, not anything I'm doing.

As far as Mormons go, they're NOT Christian. They claim to be, but they're VERY different. Their interpretation of the Bible is VERY different from Christianity. They don't believe in the Trinity -- that there is one God in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and this is essential Christian doctrine. They, in fact, believe that we can achieve God-hood. With all due respect, this is absurd.
They also believe you get to heaven through Grace and works, meaning through Christ's death AND through your own efforts. These two elements contradict each other though! Christ died on the cross because God knew we can't do anything to become righteous. We can't pay the penalty of death for our sins, but God can, and did, through the death AND resurrection of Christ (who was fully God and fully man). "We all fall short of the glory of God," says the Bible.
Mormons also believe in baptizing the dead, which is another gross misinterpretation of the Bible, and a number of other odd things. There's also never been any geological find to support the Book of Mormon, but there's been countless and continual finds supporting the Bible.
The Bible also warns against those who preach a different Gospel, which is unfortnuately what they do. They have a hard time responding to this verse.

However, I must say, many of them ARE nice people and they mean well. Their missionary work (i.e. going door to door on bikes spreading their stuff) is commendable. What they're spreading is questionable though.

I’m sorry this is so long and winded, but I hope it helps. To the Mormons in the house, I speak in love.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 02:08 AM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I think we're still on different pages. I'll try and say it better since my other post kinda confused myself: I don't think there is any room for debate over what and what is not a Christian. A Christian follows Christ, period. It's build right into the word. The wiggle-room comes from different interpretations of what it means to follow Christ, not what it means to be a Christian; they're defining specific doctrines and denominations under the umbrella of Christianity, following Christ.
To clarify the "following of Christ" which I think is a bit vague I would maintain that Christians accept Jesus as Savior. That keeps it simple and seperates those who might say oh, I follow Jesus. . .and also Buddha etc. Merely being an admirer of Christ's work doesn't make you a Christian. There's a basic acceptance of your NEED for Christ, a NEED no one else can fill that makes you a Christian.

As to whether Mormons are Christians are not--I believe they claim they are, while most other Christians maintain they are not. They do depart widely from most Christian denominations in many areas as another poster pointed out. I don't think we need to "decide" whether they are or aren't at least not corporately. Individually it may be important but that's all. The Mormons were persecuted (and killed, Irvine) but not because they claimed to be Christians. At least that wasn't central. They were persecuted becuase their lifestyle was grossly at odds with the moral values of their time (and our time, to be frank, since we are referring to polygamy here). People got all pissed off about the multiple wives and other "differences" and went after them.

Incidentally, I read Under the Banner of Heaven and it really shook my faith, to be honest. I'm not Mormon, but it really depicted how far people are willing to go (and delude themselves) to do "God's will." Since then I've really had a problem with the whole idea of being "100% surrendered" to God, in the sense that if "God" is asking me to kill people and I know it's Him (as these guys "knew" it was Him) I'd just have to say this is where we part ways. It's made me more wary of the "absolute certaintity" of many Christians and definitely more sensitive of trends towards fanaticism.

One final note--and I know we hit this on another thread some months back. I've just got to STRONGLY disagree with the idea implied by some posters here that religion is the "cause of most the world's violence." The impliciation that we'd all live in peace if we were all atheists is just bunk, absolute and total bunk. Check out those tolerant athestic socieities of Communist Russian, Nazi Germany, and China. Yeah, getting rid of religion really got rid of the violence in those societies. "Imagine" is a beautiful song, but junk philosophy.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com