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Old 09-28-2005, 04:59 PM   #16
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Originally posted by melon


There's plenty of space in Japan. All the population density is concentrated in the urban areas and they have wide open rural areas like everywhere else.

Melon
ok,

nice to see you make an occasional mistake


Japan has 10 times the density of the U. S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lation_density


and when you take in account the geography

it is the most (or one of the most) densely populated industrialize nations
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Old 09-28-2005, 05:02 PM   #17
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Originally posted by yolland
I know you didn't mean it in this way, but because too many do, I have to object here. Ethnocentric Zionism fuels the conflict in Israel, and it is an ideology straight out of the annals of 19th century secular European nationalist thought, whose principles all the modern European nations (and, indeed, the concept of the nation-state generally) are based upon. "We are a nation because we say we are, and on this basis we claim political autonomy over Region X and all the people in it." Manifest Destiny comes from this line of thought too, as do Arab nationalism and Hindu nationalism. But I will grant it is a particularly knotty issue for diaspora populations like Jews and Gypsies, who not coincidentally have suffered immeasurably for want of such a "safe" haven.
Ask the average Jewish zealot or Muslim suicide bomber and they won't nuance it like that. To them, such sentiments are intrinsically tied to religion, and, as far as they know in their short lives, such sentiments are the only "true" expressions of their religions.

Likewise, in Christianity, we have people who obsess over the Rapture, mistaking it for an authentic Christian precept, when it was invented in the 19th century; and even the present definition of "Biblical fundamentalism" is mostly a 19th century construction, even though it stemmed from the 16th century idea. But, I think we can all agree that a Puritan and a Southern Baptist approach the specifics of the Bible in different ways, and our "current way" stems from the 19th century, not Jesus.

And, frankly, as far as I see it, the pseudo-Christian concept of "Manifest Destiny" has merely resurfaced in the pseudo-Christian undertones of the "War on Terrorism."

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Nonetheless, you are right that this phenomenon is at its ugliest and most toxic when combined with religious fundamentalism. I felt it was important to point out that most militant Zionists (just like most militant Hindu nationalists, etc.) are not religious. Israel IS a constitutionally secular state; to a very large extent, it is that demographically as well.
Well, the U.S. is a constitutionally secular state too, officially. It doesn't stop our own religious zealots from making a loud fuss when their religious precepts aren't enshrined in law too, and coming up with revisionist interpretations that the U.S. is supposed to be some kind of "democratic theocracy" like Iran.

But all this does is accent my point that I do not reject all religion. I merely reject probably 90% of religion, which has merely been corrupted with cultural politics and prejudice. I want nothing more than to root that out.

Melon
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Old 09-28-2005, 05:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
ok,

nice to see you make an occasional mistake


Japan has 10 times the density of the U. S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lation_density


and when you take in account the geography

it is the most (or one of the most) densely populated industrialize nations
I did not make a mistake. Did I deny that Japan was densely populated? No. If you head into Tokyo-Kyoto-Osaka, you will, unsurprisingly, find yourself in an urban jungle with a staggeringly high population that Americans are not used to. But start heading out towards places like the northern island of Hokkaido or even northern Honshu, and you will find plenty of empty spaces if you want to hide.

Melon
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Old 09-28-2005, 05:08 PM   #19
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Originally posted by melon


I did not make a mistake.

Melon
yes

mr president.
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Old 09-28-2005, 06:51 PM   #20
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Re: belief in God harms quality of life on earth

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Originally posted by Irvine511
The United States has consistently ranked ahead of the United Kingdom in Standard of living since World War II. In the Human Development report for 2005, the United States is ranked at #10 while the United Kingdom is ranked at #15. The United Nations does the Human Development report every year to measure the standard of living in countries around the world. Hundreds of factors and inputs go in to compiling the report and it is considered to be by far the most accurate measure of standard of living out there.

A better comparison might be students educated in say Catholic or Private religious schools vs. students in Public schools. Students in Catholic schools experience less social problems and are far more likely to go on to college and graduate than Public school students.
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Old 09-28-2005, 07:02 PM   #21
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Re: Re: belief in God harms quality of life on earth

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Students in Catholic schools experience less social problems and are far more likely to go on to college and graduate than Public school students.
It's not an apt comparison. Having come from a Catholic school, most of the people I knew who went have become staunch secularists. Their schools foster little allegiance to the Church and all of its irrationality.

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Old 09-28-2005, 07:35 PM   #22
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Re: Re: Re: belief in God harms quality of life on earth

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Originally posted by melon


It's not an apt comparison. Having come from a Catholic school, most of the people I knew who went have become staunch secularists. Their schools foster little allegiance to the Church and all of its irrationality.

Melon
Myself and many others who have come from Catholic school have not seen the same reaction among people we know. Not to say that they go to church every Sunday, but none of them would describe themselves as strict secularist.

In any event, if you just focus on childern in private schools vs. childern in public schools, you will find far less social problems in the Catholic schools than in the Public schools.

In any event, the article posted is so inaccurate and baseless one has to suspect it was written by someone who has something against the church and people of faith.
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Old 09-28-2005, 07:36 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Tennis05
I can't buy into this. I am a healthier, more life-loving person because of my faith even though i dont belong to an organized religion and though religion has been the bad weapon of faith in many cases, i cant see it at the root of all evil. look what happens when people dont think that there is anything above humans, nothing to answer to.
Me either. I don't think religion is directly to blame for our problems. Intense individualism, in my opinion, is causing alot of our problems. This is at least partially because of our Puritan heritage, but there are other factors.
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Old 09-28-2005, 07:52 PM   #24
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Could this study have any less credibility? Correlation does not equate to causation - just because there are high rates of belief and high rates of murder and STDs does not mean either are even remotely connected. This study just seems to point out that there are higher rates of both beliefs and undesirable social elements in the US but does not actually show how belief causes these problems at all. It also assumes the only difference in society between the US and Great Britain is the percentage of believers in society, and doesn't account for any other elements of society that may influence the occurrence of the social ills mentioned. And furthermore, it works on the totally untrue assumption that belief in a creator automatically negates belief in evolutionary theories.

This study is a joke that can't be taken seriously.
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Old 09-28-2005, 07:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


Mother Theresa...exploited suffering.
You are joking, right? "Exploited" for whose ends? Hers?
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:08 PM   #26
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Read his post again
I would be very interested in understanding the definitions of and differences between fundamentalism in the 1920s and fundamentalism today.

Neither of which has anything to do with the point of my post, which was a response to the writer's contention that religion actually disintegrates societies rather than builds them up. I would posit the reverse, based on the case studies of communist China and North Korea -- that faith holds intrinsic value for people. If we were created to be atheists, than an atheistic worldview would flourish, would it not? Yet the church has exploded, rather than eroded, in communist regimes. The article doesn't seem to take this into account.

And consider the names below; scientists who were also Christians. (A partial list)

Sir Isaac Newton -- mathematician and physicist
Blaise Pascal -- generally regarded as a mathematical genius
Johannes Baptista van Helmont -- founder of pneumatic chemistry and chemical physiology
James Clerk Maxwell -- father of modern physics
George Washington Carver -- pioneer in chemurgy
Johannes Kepler -- discoverer of the laws of planetary motion

If you research these people's lives, the centrality of a belief in God to their worldview becomes evident. Indeed, it is this faith that leads to curiosity about the world around them. I would shudder to think where modern science would be without the faith that undergirds it.

And consider too that Bono's faith underlies so much of what he does. "Bono In Conversation" phrases so much of his aid work in theological terms. Another name to add to the list.
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:17 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Irvine511




agreed about JC and MLK; do not agree about Mother Theresa.

she exploited suffering.
This totally threw me...

Can you elaborate please?
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:17 PM   #28
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This is quite a weak study. Any Intro to Stats student can tell you "correlation is not causation". Some of my profs actually made us recite that.
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:49 PM   #29
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Re: Re: belief in God harms quality of life on earth

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Originally posted by STING2


The United States has consistently ranked ahead of the United Kingdom in Standard of living since World War II. In the Human Development report for 2005, the United States is ranked at #10 while the United Kingdom is ranked at #15. The United Nations does the Human Development report every year to measure the standard of living in countries around the world. Hundreds of factors and inputs go in to compiling the report and it is considered to be by far the most accurate measure of standard of living out there.
We're not talking about the standard of living. We're talking about social conditions, which may or may not have something to do with economics.
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:53 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Irvine511




agreed about JC and MLK; do not agree about Mother Theresa.

she exploited suffering.
I don't understand this either. I do not think she was running for sainthood, I just think she was a really good person who helped suffering people.
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