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Old 05-08-2003, 03:01 PM   #31
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"Mr. Bush has no interest in such remedies. Easing the economic struggles of poor and working families in America is not part of his agenda"

It's not even on the radar.
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Old 05-08-2003, 06:44 PM   #32
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Klaus,


"the point is Turkey DIDN'T ask for nato assistence, the US asked that Germany should send the Patriot systems to turkey."

"Since Turkey has a own government who can judge wether they are in danger or not i think it was ok to tell the US no, we won't send weapons unless Turkey asks for them."

"Your unemployment rate is just so low because you throuw many unemployed out of your statistics."

Did turkey have anti-ballistic missiles prior to this dispute? Did Turkey have the capability to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles from Iraq?

The answer to these questions is NO! Its not about who asked whom, it about providing necessary security for an alliance member. Germany, France, and Belgium blocked the move knowing full well, Turkey would be unable to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles without the deployment. That is simply unacceptible from Alliance members that are obligated to defend Turkey as if it was their own territory.

Even if longterm unemployment were added to US unemployment statistics, US unemployment would still be lower than German unemployment. The Economists feels the current statistics are comparable and continues to use them every week. Germany is at 10% to 11% unemployment while the US is at 6%.
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Old 05-08-2003, 08:37 PM   #33
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I'll never understand how it is horrible to actually go after the people who committed this crime




Sting, I don't think any reasonable party opposes this.
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and all and I repeat ALL who aided them in any way shape or form.

By this definition anyone who gave Saudis money or did business with them is guilty. So lock up GHW Bush and the Carlyle Group for being in business with the Binladens.
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Old 05-09-2003, 06:11 AM   #34
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STING2:

Turkey is a souvereign country! More than that Germany told the Turkish government that they would help them to defend and give the support they need as soon as THEY ask for it.

Germany did also leave their Tanks in Kuwait which are specialized for ABC-Warfare, left their crews in the AWACs planes and did allow the US to use their german airbases - every single point of that was discussed, because our constitution says that everyone who takes part of a unlawful (int. rights) invasion has to be imprisoned.


I have as much Sympathy for Schroeder than i have for G.W. Bush (judge yourself from my posting how much that might be ) Unemployment is the biggest problem for germany right now, in the neue Bundeslšnder (former east-germany) it's at approx. 20%! (in the Bundesland where i live it's at 6.3 % this month) Schroeder did a weak job in fighting this.
But you still can't compare US and German unemployment rates:
1st afik US dosn't count the full number of unemployed or makes statistics about it
2nd there are no working poors in Germany if you have one job you have enough for living
3rd even if you are unemployed here you still get financial support from our social system so that you have enough to eat and a place to live.

While i don't want to judge which system is better in this thread i'm still sure that you shouldn't compare those numbers, because they say something different.

Klaus
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Old 05-09-2003, 05:15 PM   #35
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Klaus,


"Turkey is a souvereign country! More than that Germany told the Turkish government that they would help them to defend and give the support they need as soon as THEY ask for it."

Did you read what I said before. The only thing that matters is that Turkey at the time had no way to defend against a ballistic missile attack. That is a fact no matter how you want to spin things. The rest of NATO, 16 countries approved the deployment of the missiles, Germany, France, and Belguim did not, knowing full well Turkey would be unable to defend its self without the missiles.

As far as comparing German and US statistics, the United Nations does an excellent job at comparing that and shows that the USA has the #6 standard of living in the world while Germany is at #17.
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Old 05-09-2003, 05:54 PM   #36
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How did this thread degenerate into some kind of bizarre nationalistic "my country has a higher standard of living than yours" debate?
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Old 05-09-2003, 08:12 PM   #37
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STING2:

By repeating your Turkey argument it dosn't get better, if someone expects an answer - just read my last response

as far as i could read the almost 300 pages UNDP Report 2002 you're right, it's well done.

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Old 05-10-2003, 02:02 AM   #38
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How did this thread degenerate into some kind of bizarre nationalistic "my country has a higher standard of living than yours" debate?
How can anyone dare challenge "God's Country"? Anyone who thinks that the U.S. *isn't* the best country in the world is probably some communist-sympathizing terrorist and is in need of some "liberating."

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Old 05-10-2003, 04:30 PM   #39
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Klaus,

"By repeating your Turkey argument it dosn't get better, if someone expects an answer - just read my last response"

I did not repeat my argument but instead try to help you understand my point. If Germany, Belguim, and France care about the security of Turkey, there is no rational reason for them to block the move of anti-ballistic missiles to the country. Let me ask you this, if France, Germany, and Belgium had their way, how would Turkey stop incoming Scud missiles from Iraq?

Melon,


"How can anyone dare challenge "God's Country"? Anyone who thinks that the U.S. *isn't* the best country in the world is probably some communist-sympathizing terrorist and is in need of some "liberating.""

Lists some facts and present a different point of view, than a liberal or European one, and your name becomes Joe McCarthy.
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Old 05-10-2003, 05:50 PM   #40
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STING2:

ok, i try to keep ontopic - that's why i use G.W.Bush as an example and don't write in a more genaral way:

Do you think G.W.Bush has the right to tell a allied country (Turkey) HOW to defend theirself or is it business of the free and democratic elected Turkish government?
I think Mr.Bush mixes up Leader of the USA with Leader of the World.

That's why Germany refused to send the Patriots like Mr. Bush said but said Turkey at the same time that if THEY will ask for any defensive help they will get whatever they need.

But seriousely - the (in)responsible behaviour of several countries could fill a own thread.


To the country-comparing. I guess it's completely legitime to compare countries, you can learn from mistakes if you try to understand why some countries rise or fall on these statistics.

And i don't think Sting wanted to bash EU or "left" countries because 3 of the top 5 are European countries and they were famous for their liberal politics.

Klaus
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Old 05-11-2003, 10:22 PM   #41
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Klaus,

You keep on bringing up whether Turkey made a formal request for missiles or not. That is not the point.

Turkey does not have anti-ballistic missile system to defeat an incoming Scud Missile. Turkey is there for vulnerable to ballistic missile attack. Forget the politics of formal request, I'm talking basic military strategy and security here. By blocking the move to put anti-ballistic missiles in place in Turkey, Germany, France, and Belgium are exposing millions of Turkish civilians to a potential bio/Chem tipped ballistic missiles from Iraq. Say all you want about formal request from the Turkish government, think strictly about the security of the people in Turkey for a second. How does blocking the deployment of anti-ballistic missile systems make the Turkish population safer from a ballistic missile attack by Iraq?
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Old 05-12-2003, 04:47 AM   #42
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To the country-comparing. I guess it's completely legitime to compare countries, you can learn from mistakes if you try to understand why some countries rise or fall on these statistics.
Certainly people can learn from comparing countries successes and failures and the reasons for those, but I don't think that simply comparing the UNDP's statistics achieves anything. We weren't discussing why a country might perform poorly in education but perform well in healthcare provision, or why another country might have high unemployment but a high average GDP per head. I think those kind of debates are interesting, although difficult, but simply comparing GDP or unemployment statistics without taking into account possible reasons for this, seems like simple "my country is better than yours" rhetoric.

Sorry if I misunderstood the purpose of your discussion though.
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Old 05-12-2003, 04:58 AM   #43
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Regarding Turkey, why make all the fuss about this request? As long as Turkey did not ask for the anti-ballistic missile system they probably did not think there was any danger for it. I agree with Klaus here.
Making a formal request is the point. Why place something in Turkey when the Turkish government does not want to have it?

C ya!

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Old 05-12-2003, 08:14 PM   #44
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Popmartijn,

Its a fact that Iraq could have at any time launched a ballistic missile into Turkey. Without anti-ballistic missile defense system, Turkey would be unable to defend itself from the attack.

Those are facts that no one can dispute regardless of your opinion on the whole issue or the country your from.

That is the point! How are people in Turkey going to be safe from an Iraqi ballistic missile attack if they don't have an anti-ballistic missile system to stop such an attack?

Although its not the point, it should be mentioned that Turkey did not say that they didn't want the anti-ballistic missiles in the country. Of the 19 NATO nations, only 3, Belguim, Germany, and France voted against sending the missiles.

How do France, Germany, and Belgium think Turkey will be able to defend itself from a ballistic missile attack from Iraq if they don't have an anti-ballistic missile system?

16 NATO nations approved sending the missiles because there was an obvious need for them. Germany, France, and Belgium are either ignorant about the capabilities of ballistic missiles and how they threaten Turkey, or they have another interest that is greater than ensuring the security of a NATO country.
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:11 AM   #45
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That is the point! How are people in Turkey going to be safe from an Iraqi ballistic missile attack if they don't have an anti-ballistic missile system to stop such an attack?
I don't know. Ask Turkey as they thought they could be safe without having such a system.

Quote:
Although its not the point, it should be mentioned that Turkey did not say that they didn't want the anti-ballistic missiles in the country. Of the 19 NATO nations, only 3, Belguim, Germany, and France voted against sending the missiles.
Nor did Turkey say that they did want the anti-ballistic missiles in the country. Thus 3 countries voted against the US request, stating that sending missiles at that moment to Turkey would consist of an offensive move. Indeed, Iraq could have fired missiles on Turkey any time, including the preceding 12 years. They didn't then and luckily they didn't now. There was also no cause for Iraq to fire them, as firing them would have increased the support for a war against Iraq, even in the countries that were initially against the war.

Quote:
How do France, Germany, and Belgium think Turkey will be able to defend itself from a ballistic missile attack from Iraq if they don't have an anti-ballistic missile system?
I don't know. How did Turkey think it would be able to defend itself?

Quote:
16 NATO nations approved sending the missiles because there was an obvious need for them. Germany, France, and Belgium are either ignorant about the capabilities of ballistic missiles and how they threaten Turkey, or they have another interest that is greater than ensuring the security of a NATO country.
16 NATO countries saw an 'obvious need', 3 countries did not see this. So in your eyes they had other interests than ensuring the security of a NATO country. Because they would sure have liked it when Turkey was attacked by Iraq. Casualties, great!

C ya!

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