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Old 11-07-2005, 08:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades
Calling people unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq is so 2003.
or so..uh... Joe McCarthy?
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Old 11-07-2005, 04:30 PM   #17
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Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by deep



Mac,


It was the lefties, the intreventionalists that were iching to jump into WWII


and the "Conservatives" America-First types that were fighting to keep us out.

WWII and the War of Choice based on fraudulant evidence are indeed two different things.

Unless you are just someone who loves war and killing people.
Yes, the "conservatives" got the Human Shield out there and stood in the path of the military as they laid down their lives to protect the world's freedom. And your "someone who loves war and killing people" comment is no more credible than if I suggested that you loved Saddam's mass graves, wood chippers, plastic shredders, rapes, murders,... you get the idea.
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Old 11-07-2005, 04:44 PM   #18
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Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


You know, I'm not patriotic in the slightest but the implication that to oppose the war means one is not patriotic bothers me, if only because it seems that being branded 'unpatriotic' is problematic for many opponents of the war. Please tell me what is unpatriotic about questioning or indeed opposing a policy of your government.



The author of the article (I don't know if it's your own article or not? Could you clarify?) seems to assume some sort of equivalence between World War II and the current war in Iraq, when even a cursory glance at a textbook of twentieth century history will expose the vast differences between the conflict of 1939-1945 and the contemporary situation in Iraq.

And just for the record, people's concern with the war in Iraq isn't exclusively with American military deaths or the cost to the United States. Many people are disgusted to see that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed and millions more had their lives devastated by the invasion. It is that reason, as much or more than the cost to the United States, which leads many to oppose this war.
My research, my piece.

...As were many Japanese devastated in my own country as they were treated harshly and denied basic freedoms because they didn't look American enough. That's just for starters. There were many similarities between this war and many other lessons throughout history.

I loved the "McCarthyism" cry by the way... It seems to be an automated response to when liberals have their patriotism questioned.

----

Hollywood is a VERY different place now than it was. I despise the idea that Hollywood should be our spokesmouths by any means.

Cher says, "I don't like Bush. I don't trust him. He's stupid; he's lazy."

Guess how smart she is. Guess! She's a high-school dropout.

While she carries no academic credentials, not even a GED, Bush graduated from Yale and completed a mastor's of business administration at Harvard's business school. He's a certified F-102 pilot who has flown with the Texas Air National Guard. Even with those facts in context, I want to be a Hollywood suckup and declare Cher more intelligent.

And of course it's irrational to question Richard Gere's patriotism as well. When that turncoat went halfway around the world, he stabbed his country in the back with a butcher knife. At the 53rd Berlin Film Festival, he took the liberty of claiming that "America has never paid any attention to other people." Really?

FDR wanted war with Hitler and the Japanese factories of death long before Pearl Harbor. And what about the North Vietnamese slaughter of a million South Vietnamese AFTER the US withdrew? Or Reagan's tactics for ending the Cold War?
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Old 11-07-2005, 04:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades
Calling people unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq is so 2003.
So is whining about the US-led invasion.
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Old 11-07-2005, 04:54 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
My research, my piece.

...As were many Japanese devastated in my own country as they were treated harshly and denied basic freedoms because they didn't look American enough. That's just for starters. There were many similarities between this war and many other lessons throughout history.

I loved the "McCarthyism" cry by the way... It seems to be an automated response to when liberals have their patriotism questioned.

----

Hollywood is a VERY different place now than it was. I despise the idea that Hollywood should be our spokesmouths by any means.

Cher says, "I don't like Bush. I don't trust him. He's stupid; he's lazy."

Guess how smart she is. Guess! She's a high-school dropout.

While she carries no academic credentials, not even a GED, Bush graduated from Yale and completed a mastor's of business administration at Harvard's business school. He's a certified F-102 pilot who has flown with the Texas Air National Guard. Even with those facts in context, I want to be a Hollywood suckup and declare Cher more intelligent.

And of course it's irrational to question Richard Gere's patriotism as well. When that turncoat went halfway around the world, he stabbed his country in the back with a butcher knife. At the 53rd Berlin Film Festival, he took the liberty of claiming that "America has never paid any attention to other people." Really?

FDR wanted war with Hitler and the Japanese factories of death long before Pearl Harbor. And what about the North Vietnamese slaughter of a million South Vietnamese AFTER the US withdrew? Or Reagan's tactics for ending the Cold War?

Your priorities are interesting.

You rant against these various celebrities, few of which have ever held political office, few of which have any real influence or power, but ignore the fact that the current crop of political leaders, from Bush-Cheney-DeLay to Tony Blair over on this side of the pond, have no records of combat military service.

If we want to bring WWII analogies into it, allow me to point out Winston Churchill and Roosevelt had distinguished military careers. They certainly weren't chickenhawks.

On the other hand Bush and Cheney dodged the draft, as did an uncomfortably large number of other Republican politicians.

And who on this forum has put forward Cher or Richard Gere as role models? No-one has.

But carry on with your ranting against irrelevant non-entities like Cher or Richard Gere, it will help detract your attention away from your political leaders with their feet of clay.
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Old 11-07-2005, 04:55 PM   #21
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Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
you're phrase "some 2,000 US casualties" is an insult to those brave 2000+ men and women who gave their lives. How dare you you dismiss their lives and the importance of their lives! Each one of those soldiers had dreams, aspirations, loves, families - they were real people. And, may I ask how many Iraqis have died? Or, do their lives not mean as much as American? Are Iraqis somehow less human?
Why don't you relax. The 2000 figure was the US casualties in comparisan to the 292,000+ casualties the US faced in WWII.
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Old 11-07-2005, 04:58 PM   #22
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
If we want to bring WWII analogies into it, allow me to point out Winston Churchill and Roosevelt had distinguished military careers. They certainly weren't chickenhawks.
Winston Churchill also fought for an independent Iraq that gave human beings basic dignities. Then came the Baath Party that set Iraq back 1,000 years. Roosevelt was IN BED with Joseph Stalin, make no mistake. He also had Soviet spies working within his administration.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:01 PM   #23
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
And who on this forum has put forward Cher or Richard Gere as role models? No-one has.

But carry on with your ranting against irrelevant non-entities like Cher or Richard Gere, it will help detract your attention away from your political leaders with their feet of clay.
Of course, I (the apparent neocon from Hell) would never allow that to happen. If you're not interested in discussing Hollywood's history, I'm not requiring you to do such a thing.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:09 PM   #24
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Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
How long did it take to find Osama? Oh wait, we haven't.
Yes, for we all know that global terrorism will disappear the minute we find Osama...
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:16 PM   #25
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Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
This war was based on outright lies - from the 9/11-Saddam consipiracy to the "sexed up" WMD intelligence.
Saddam didn't have anything to do with the isolated 9/11 incident. However, he offered $25,000 to the families of each suicide bomber that accepted his contribution to global terroris.

And if Bush "lied," so did all of these people.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:21 PM   #26
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Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

*terrorism
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
So is whining about the US-led invasion.
The point I was trying to make is more and more Americans are starting to question why we are there - or at least how the occupation is being handled.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:28 PM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet


Where were the righties when Iraq was invading Iran? Oh yeah, shaking hands and giving Saddam weapons
Can you name one weapon system they gave to Iraq? I know of some weapons, 2,000 TOW missiles, they gave to IRAN to free hostages during that time.
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Old 11-07-2005, 08:21 PM   #29
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


Can you name one weapon system they gave to Iraq?



Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


I know of some weapons, 2,000 TOW missiles, they gave to IRAN to free hostages during that time.

isn't Iran the axis of evil?

That was completely illegal

trading arms for hostages
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Old 11-07-2005, 08:28 PM   #30
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Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Saddam didn't have anything to do with the isolated 9/11 incident. However, he offered $25,000 to the families of each suicide bomber that accepted his contribution to global terroris.

And if Bush "lied," so did all of these people.

the big difference

for anyone with
any common decency
and integrity


is

honest mistakes

and

dishonest mistakes



this administration
chose to push the
dishonest mistakes
evidence they knew was shoddy or outright false

there is a reason he is at 37% in the polls
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