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Old 01-06-2005, 07:33 PM   #106
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm not claiming the girl is innocent in this. But these instances are miles apart from each other. To claim this is the same as having a legal abortion is just ridiculous.
Please explain why the baby is any less dead if it's killed in an abortion clinic!
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Old 01-06-2005, 07:36 PM   #107
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perhaps the best anology is the death penalty.

it's one thing to have the procedure done in a controlled, sterile, *humane* environment, but quite another to torture a person to death.

true, it amounts in the same result, but there's a world of difference in the means to that end.
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Old 01-06-2005, 08:17 PM   #108
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


Please explain why the baby is any less dead if it's killed in an abortion clinic!
I think the point is the woman is treated differently. It's obvious you are very anti-abortion, but even if a woman is to have one wouldn't you want it to be in a safe environment?
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Old 01-06-2005, 08:18 PM   #109
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Right, because taking her to a place where it could have happened legally and safe and beating her with a baseball bat is the same.

I love how pro-life means they only care about the fetus but once it's out they don't give a fuck about life.
Actually U2kitten made a big deal out of not being pro-life, so I take it that she is anti-abortion, but not pro-life.

So to anyone who asks, "who is anti-abortion, but not pro-life" -- well there she is! And proud of it too! They have to be born, but after that....
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Old 01-06-2005, 08:27 PM   #110
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But isn't this case typical of the things women did before abortion was legalized? And will do again if it is made illegal. Far better to stop trying to take away the needed option of abortion and work on having fewer unwanted pregnancies. That's not going to happen with the current "well, don't have sex" attitude, because that's not going to happen.
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Old 01-06-2005, 08:31 PM   #111
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Originally posted by indra
But isn't this case typical of the things women did before abortion was legalized? And will do again if it is made illegal. Far better to stop trying to take away the needed option of abortion and work on having fewer unwanted pregnancies. That's not going to happen with the current "well, don't have sex" attitude, because that's not going to happen.
EXACTLY. It starts with education and our sex-ed still is light years behind where it should be.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:30 PM   #112
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It sounds like it's all picking and choosing to me. When it's medical tools, it's all good and dandy, but when it's a baseball bat, it's not professional enough, so that's how you dream this crap up? The liberal mindset on this issue is based on the legality, and I honestly see nothing more than that. Do I care about the person's life after they're born? Of course. The death penalty is touchy for me as well, I don't generally support it unless there has been more than one murder committed and both are proven beyond any reasonable doubt. I think doctor assisted suicide is an awful idea, and I don't see how it makes suicide any better. It's the same exact thing, as long as you have a doctor with you, everything should be legal. This is your mindset?
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:44 PM   #113
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Ok Mr. Condescending. You don't have to be a scientist to know that is what science states. Does it not state that? Then what are the laws based on? Or do I need to be a lawyer to know those kind of things?

darling, i was refering to your deliberate use of quotation marks -- the way i read your post, you don't believe that it's a scientific fact that a fetus is not a person. if you do, but are still anti-choice, that's a different matter. and if i read those quotes wrong, then i apologize, but you'd do well to refrain from the name calling as it weakens your arguments even further.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:45 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten


Please explain why the baby is any less dead if it's killed in an abortion clinic!
because it isn't a baby. if it were a baby, we'd call it a baby. but because it's a fetus, not a baby, we call it a fetus.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:47 PM   #115
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Originally posted by Irvine511
because it isn't a baby. if it were a baby, we'd call it a baby. but because it's a fetus, not a baby, we call it a fetus.
Same DNA, same parents, same genetics. Personally, I don't know how you can agree with an issue that doesn't even value your existence.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:47 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It sounds like it's all picking and choosing to me. When it's medical tools, it's all good and dandy, but when it's a baseball bat, it's not professional enough, so that's how you dream this crap up?
(first time I've had to use this one, but I really don't understand why some are having such a hard time seeing the difference)

Apparently you haven't read the whole thread or you too are so focusing on the "abortion" aspect of that you can't see where one is a surgical procedure and one is beating a woman. It's not that liberals are only thinking legality. Look abortions have been happening for a long time. Way before it was legal. Many of the procedures left the woman and the unborn dead. I think most liberals are just trying to keep an alternative from losing two lives.

Education is key. We still have very ignorant teens out there who have no clue how much of a responsibility sex is. Believe me I know. I personally never have to worry about getting pregnant but I've worked with teens and I know that some of them are clueless.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:50 PM   #117
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Complex, logical and based on principle.

I've simply questioned the emotional arguments that apply only in this case because, well, the case is so special.

And conveniently, we decree "life" and "not life" on unprincipled grounds.
we agree on the first part. but i fail to see how the legalization of abortion -- determined upon medical distinctions made between a fetus and a baby combined with the well known and documented social and medical costs of denying women access to safe abortion -- is emotional and not based upon principle. we also create principles based upon distinctions, like distinctions made between an 8 week old cluster of cells and a 7 year old child.

and i don't think this case is so special. i bet you it happens often, and probably happened far, far more often pre-1973. and what are the emotional arguments you disagree with in this particular incident?

and your last statement is opinion, not fact, though you've presented it as such. could you explicate?

and i do appreciate your arguments on logic and principle, as opposed to the other wild "baby killer" arguments being offered here.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:51 PM   #118
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Same DNA, same parents, same genetics. Personally, I don't know how you can agree with an issue that doesn't even value your existence.
Well come on. DNA doesn't make a baby, I have DNA in my hair.

Look at it this way. An 8 week old fetus when taken out of the womb will not develop into a child. It's a clump of cells. It takes more than a sperm hitting an egg to make a baby.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:53 PM   #119
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Same DNA, same parents, same genetics. Personally, I don't know how you can agree with an issue that doesn't even value your existence.

it isn't a baby. it is a fetus. my parents wanted me, they valued my existence, and continue to do so to this day. i hope that every child born is as valued as i was, and that's really the goal behind those of us who believe in choice -- by enabling women to control their bodies, we are preserving life and improving the quality of life of everyone on the planet.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:56 PM   #120
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Originally posted by thacraic


My question is what would this boy be charged with? Praciticing medicine without a license or feticide?
last time i checked, hitting women with a baseball bat isn't a medical procedure.
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