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Old 01-06-2005, 09:58 AM   #46
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Cause things are so much better now?
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Old 01-06-2005, 10:27 AM   #47
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The other person was willing though so how can it be abuse? That would be like prosecuting someone for participating in S&M. Now of course that is used for sexual acts but the point being, it is a consensual thing.
Kevorkian is in prison by assiting those who "consented" to death.

You can still "consent" to abuse. Desperation will cause some to do crazy things.
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Old 01-06-2005, 10:34 AM   #48
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Cause things are so much better now?

yes, much. you should check out films like "Vera Drake" or an excellent HBO movie from a few years ago called "if these walls could talk." both do an excellent job dramatizing very real situations encountered by women in the pre-Roe era.
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Old 01-06-2005, 12:16 PM   #49
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There are so many contradictions in this country.....

it's against the law to kill somebody, unless it's being carried out by the state in the form of a death penalty...

abortion is a legally protected right that women have...unless it is carried out in a manner like in the story above....

it's all just insanity
is it really a contradiction or just regulation? it's legal for a doctor to inject a patient with diamorphine but it's illegal for someone to score some heroin on the streets and inject it, even though diamorphine and heroin are the same thing. i don't see that as contradictory (though i'm in favour of decriminalising drug use) but just as the government attempting to regulate the use of a potentially dangerous substance. abortion is potentially dangerous and therefore is regulated by the government.
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Old 01-06-2005, 02:11 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


Kevorkian is in prison by assiting those who "consented" to death.

You can still "consent" to abuse. Desperation will cause some to do crazy things.
So should people who engage in S&M be prosecuted because it is consent to abuse? Say if a person gets off (sexually) on getting hit by a baseball bat should the person swinging away be charged with a crime?

Also, who did the abusing here anyway? The boy yes, but was he not acting out of desperation as well?

Out of desperation, BOTH the boy and the girl did this. The question of abuse shouldn't even be a factor because yes it was consensual. The law does not see it as a factor because the boy is being charged with terminating the fetus, not assualt on the girl who was carrying it.

The problem here is that this girl is not going to be charged with anything. She can't be because she has a right to terminate the pregnancy, which was the motive for the beating in the first place.
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Old 01-06-2005, 02:28 PM   #51
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Evidentally the LAW does not see it as a difference.
Actually the law does see it as a difference because an doctor wouldn't be charged but a boy with a bat is. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic

So should people who engage in S&M be prosecuted because it is consent to abuse? Say if a person gets off (sexually) on getting hit by a baseball bat should the person swinging away be charged with a crime?
If serious injuries or a miscarriage occur, then yes.
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic

Also, who did the abusing here anyway? The boy yes, but was he not acting out of desperation as well?
Um, yes and he's being charged.

Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic

The problem here is that this girl is not going to be charged with anything. She can't be because she has a right to terminate the pregnancy, which was the motive for the beating in the first place.
Actually she doesn't without parents consent, this is why it was done with a baseball bat. Sorry but I'm not seeing your point.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:02 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Do Miss America
Actually she doesn't without parents consent, this is why it was done with a baseball bat. Sorry but I'm not seeing your point.



this case is a perfect example of why abortion must remain safe and legal (and hopefully rare), and also why parental notification laws do damage to those most vulnerable: the kids themselves.

we can argue about how the world should be -- she shouldn't have gotten pregnant; she shouldn't have had sex; she should have been able to tell her parents -- but the world is messy, and ugly, and women have always had abortions, women will always have abortions, so let's deal with reality, make abortions safe and legal, and work to create the changes in society that will hopefully reduce the number of women who seek abortions.

how do we do that? certainly not by outlawing abortion.

1. comprehensive sex education
2. empowering teenage girls -- letting them know they are valued for more than their sexuality
3. helping women achieve more financial independence
4. addressing inequality in heterosexual relationships, particularly as it correlates to socioeconomic status

and many more.

in April, i marched (along with 900,000 people) in DC for women's right to choose. as you could expect, there were anti-choice protesters lining the streets, and it was amazingly intense. i did, however, see one anti-choice sign that i agreed with: "abortion is evidence that we have failed women." yes. i think both sides can agree on that. but outlawing abortion isn't the way to prevent them, as this case clearly demonstrates. what started as, i think, a way to debate the "personhood" or "citizenship" of a fetus has revealed itself to be a reaffirmation (for me) of exactly why abortion was made legal to begin with.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:07 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America


Actually the law does see it as a difference because an doctor wouldn't be charged but a boy with a bat is. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

If serious injuries or a miscarriage occur, then yes.

Um, yes and he's being charged.



Actually she doesn't without parents consent, this is why it was done with a baseball bat. Sorry but I'm not seeing your point.
Yes I realize the law sees it as a difference. I worded my post badly. To bad you didn't put my entire post in your quote and you would have shown where I stated the law sees it as differet hence the manner in which the charges have been brought.

As far as the miscarriage statement. If this kid was just beating on this girl with a bat and nothing happened, he would have been charged with assualt. You were going on about abuse. I made a remark on it. Then I pointed out that you are trying to say that consenual forms of abuse should be prosecuted. Now you are saying if it's in the case of a miscarriage. If someone is abused and has a miscarriage, the person responsible will be tried for feticide as is happening here. If someone abuses someone against their will they are tried with assualt. So I do not see YOUR point.

Yes he is being charged. But you were saying that out of desperation people will do ANYTHING almost like saying she is justified but he is not. That is another point I am making. They should both be charged.

Well considering that this girl did not get permission from her parents to have this done, then she was acting outside of the law, and should be charged for that but.... she is NOT.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:09 PM   #54
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The logic behind your arguments is scary. A person may go ahead and do what they are not suppose to do and get hurt, so let's make it legal.

And no parental consent??? A minor needs parental consent to get a bloody earring! And you want the law to "protect them" from their parents??

I know the emotional cases and dramatic stories you sited before. But they make a lousy basis for principled action.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The logic behind your arguments is scary. A person may go ahead and do what they are not suppose to do and get hurt, so let's make it legal.

And no parental consent??? A minor needs parental consent to get a bloody earring! And you want the law to "protect them" from their parents??

I know the emotional cases and dramatic stories you sited before. But they make a lousy basis for principled action.
getting an earring and getting an abortion are two hugely different matters, and when you start to encounter situations where the parent might also be the father of the child, then parental notification laws make less and less sense.

i have no idea what you're saying in the first sentence.

could you explicate the last two sentences? abortion is always emotional, probably often dramatic. to me, woman bleeding to death in her apartment because of a botch back-alley abortion is a perfectly logical basis for the legality of abortion.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:16 PM   #56
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A system of law is based on principles, not emotion.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:19 PM   #57
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A system of law is based on principles, not emotion.
and this is inconsistent how, exactly?
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:27 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic

As far as the miscarriage statement. If this kid was just beating on this girl with a bat and nothing happened, he would have been charged with assualt. You were going on about abuse. I made a remark on it. Then I pointed out that you are trying to say that consenual forms of abuse should be prosecuted. Now you are saying if it's in the case of a miscarriage. If someone is abused and has a miscarriage, the person responsible will be tried for feticide as is happening here. If someone abuses someone against their will they are tried with assualt. So I do not see YOUR point.
Yes so called consent or not he should be prosecuted, no matter what. He's being charged with feticide because a baby was lost and it's the higher of the two charges.
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Yes he is being charged. But you were saying that out of desperation people will do ANYTHING almost like saying she is justified but he is not. That is another point I am making. They should both be charged.
When did I ever say desperation was an excuse? I said consent under desperation I wouldn't exactly consider sound mind.
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Well considering that this girl did not get permission from her parents to have this done, then she was acting outside of the law, and should be charged for that but.... she is NOT.
But for what, stupidity? I think it would be very difficult to prove her part in it. How do you prove her consent or that she wasn't temporarily insane?
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:30 PM   #59
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
The logic behind your arguments is scary. A person may go ahead and do what they are not suppose to do and get hurt, so let's make it legal.

And no parental consent??? A minor needs parental consent to get a bloody earring! And you want the law to "protect them" from their parents??
Is it illegal for minors to have sex without consent?
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:31 PM   #60
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and this is inconsistent how, exactly?
You've based your support of abortion on very emotional terms.


And let me try to clear up some of the confusion about my comment on the logic presented:

1. Act "X" is illegal.
2. Some people want to do act "X" despite it being illegal
3. When these people do act "X", they sometime hurt themselves
4. Therefore, we should make act "X" legal to prevent the harm.



In all that logic, you've ignore the harm done to the unborn child.
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