Baseball bat abortion

[Macfistowannabe]

What? This is assault, this has nothing to do with the abusing of legal abortion.

That wasn't my claim, and yes, it was assault. I would elaborate on how I find legalized abortion abusive, but I'd rather stay on topic.

Who's claiming accidental miscarriage?

Again, not me. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Planned Parenthood defended this girl to death. I think both the boy and the girl should go to juvie hall - instead of being tried as adults, and perhaps the boy should serve more time, seeing that he did most of the damage. In my opinion, this crime was a result of promoting legal abortion, which costs big bucks, and the only differences I find between this and legalized abortion is 1) the financial difference and 2) using a baseball bat instead of a doctor.

 

[Do Miss America]

Again, not me. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Planned Parenthood defended this girl to death. I think both the boy and the girl should go to juvie hall - instead of being tried as adults, and perhaps the boy should serve more time, seeing that he did most of the damage. In my opinion, this crime was a result of promoting legal abortion, which costs big bucks, and the only differences I find between this and legalized abortion is 1) the financial difference and 2) using a baseball bat instead of a doctor.

So not only are you jumping to huge conclusions about planned parenthood, but you're saying this crime was a RESULT of promoting abortion? Plus you claim that one of the only differences is using a bat instead of a doctor? Wow that's priceless and discusting.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I've taken a look at Planned Parenthood, and they have a whatever attitude when it comes to teen pregnancy. I would like to know - besides the legality - why you find my opinion so disgusting.

 

[Do Miss America]

I've taken a look at Planned Parenthood, and they have a whatever attitude when it comes to teen pregnancy.

Even if that's the case it doesn't mean they promote beating someone with a baseball bat. Christian conservatives want to get rid of homosexuals but even they won't come out and promote beating them with a baseball bat.

I would like to know - besides the legality - why you find my opinion so disgusting.

Because you admittingly don't see the difference in using a sterile and professional setting as opposed to beating someone. I don't care what your opinion on abortion, you have to see the f##king difference.

To me this issue has nothing to do with abortion it has everything to do with abuse.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Oh, good, an abortion thread.

:: resigns self to having no life for the next few days ::

lucky there's 6 other mods then huh.

i'm glad everyone agrees that this is utterly disgusting, regardless of views on abortion itself.

 

[thacraic]

This boy is not being charged with assualt. He is being charged with the death of a fetus, correct?

Evidentally the LAW does not see it as a difference. If there were a difference between assualt and abortion in this case, he would be being charged with assault not feticide (which is what they are charging him with?)

 

[thacraic]

To me this issue has nothing to do with abortion it has everything to do with abuse.

The other person was willing though so how can it be abuse? That would be like prosecuting someone for participating in S&M. Now of course that is used for sexual acts but the point being, it is a consensual thing.

 

[Angela Harlem]

This boy is not being charged with assualt. He is being charged with the death of a fetus, correct?

Evidentally the LAW does not see it as a difference. If there were a difference between assualt and abortion in this case, he would be being charged with assault not feticide (which is what they are charging him with?)

Was the boy legally permitted to carry out his backyward abortion?

No.

He deserves the fullest punishment he can be afforded. And so does she, but the law disagrees.

 

[pax]

I really, really doubt that Planned Parenthood would be "whatever" about beating a young girl into miscarrying her fetus. To suggest otherwise is to smear an organization that really does do a lot of good things, regardless of how you feel about abortion.

Although Planned Parenthood does offer information about abortion (the office in my area does not actually perform them, though that could be the exception and not the rule), they also offer crisis pregnancy services, health services for pregnant women, sex education, contraception, etc. A friend of mine goes to PP for her birth control pills because she doesn't have health insurance.

This is a really disturbing thing to happen, nevertheless, and my only guess on why the pregnant woman wasn't charged is because something has to be seriously wrong with you to allow someone to beat you in the stomach with a baseball bat regularly for any period of time. Maybe she's not being charged because she's insane. I'm not being glib about this, either--doesn't that sound a bit nuts to some of you? I think this girl needs some major help.

 

[AcrobatMan]

nevermind

too controversial

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I wonder if they were using birth control. Obviously that's not fool proof. I wonder also if they explored other options before resorting to this.

This quote just sticks in my head..and honestly I can't feel the sympathy for them when other options were available to them Yes I know it is so confusing and scary sometimes to be a teenager, and you don't always think before you act, whether it's about sex or other things. But you have to face up to/be prepared the consequences of sex. That's just my humble opinion.

"Miranda Massie, a Detroit civil rights attorney, believes neither teen should be charged. "My heart went out to these poor kids," Massie said. "I believe it is a terrible mistake to be charged at all. This is a tremendous waste of public resources. "

I just can't understand thinking they shouldn't be charged.

 

[Irvine511]

i think an irony is that if we do see the removal of abortion rights, we'll be seeing many, many, many more of these kinds of disgusting cases involving not just baseball bats, but coathangers, knitting needles, and god knows what else.

 

[thacraic]

Was the boy legally permitted to carry out his backyward abortion?

No.

He deserves the fullest punishment he can be afforded. And so does she, but the law disagrees.

I really don't understand why you quoted what I said and then replied to it with the above.

What I was saying is in regards to it not being assualt on the girl. It was consensual. It resulted in the loss of a fetus and that is the crime he is being charged with (and she should be as well.)

I really don't get your response. Sorry.

 

[thacraic]

This is a really disturbing thing to happen, nevertheless, and my only guess on why the pregnant woman wasn't charged is because something has to be seriously wrong with you to allow someone to beat you in the stomach with a baseball bat regularly for any period of time. Maybe she's not being charged because she's insane. I'm not being glib about this, either--doesn't that sound a bit nuts to some of you? I think this girl needs some major help.

It says why she isn't being charged. If they charged her it would conflict with fedral law (Roe v Wade) whether or not she is mentally unstable has nothing to do with it.

 

[Golightly Grrl]

i think an irony is that if we do see the removal of abortion rights, we'll be seeing many, many, many more of these kinds of disgusting cases involving not just baseball bats, but coathangers, knitting needles, and god knows what else.

Exactly. I shudder at the thought of going back to the way things were pre-1973.

 

[nbcrusader]

Cause things are so much better now?

 

[Do Miss America]

The other person was willing though so how can it be abuse? That would be like prosecuting someone for participating in S&M. Now of course that is used for sexual acts but the point being, it is a consensual thing.

Kevorkian is in prison by assiting those who "consented" to death.

You can still "consent" to abuse. Desperation will cause some to do crazy things.

 

[Irvine511]

Cause things are so much better now?

yes, much. you should check out films like "Vera Drake" or an excellent HBO movie from a few years ago called "if these walls could talk." both do an excellent job dramatizing very real situations encountered by women in the pre-Roe era.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

There are so many contradictions in this country.....

it's against the law to kill somebody, unless it's being carried out by the state in the form of a death penalty...

abortion is a legally protected right that women have...unless it is carried out in a manner like in the story above....

it's all just insanity

is it really a contradiction or just regulation? it's legal for a doctor to inject a patient with diamorphine but it's illegal for someone to score some heroin on the streets and inject it, even though diamorphine and heroin are the same thing. i don't see that as contradictory (though i'm in favour of decriminalising drug use) but just as the government attempting to regulate the use of a potentially dangerous substance. abortion is potentially dangerous and therefore is regulated by the government.

 

[thacraic]

Kevorkian is in prison by assiting those who "consented" to death.

You can still "consent" to abuse. Desperation will cause some to do crazy things.

So should people who engage in S&M be prosecuted because it is consent to abuse? Say if a person gets off (sexually) on getting hit by a baseball bat should the person swinging away be charged with a crime?

Also, who did the abusing here anyway? The boy yes, but was he not acting out of desperation as well?

Out of desperation, BOTH the boy and the girl did this. The question of abuse shouldn't even be a factor because yes it was consensual. The law does not see it as a factor because the boy is being charged with terminating the fetus, not assualt on the girl who was carrying it.

The problem here is that this girl is not going to be charged with anything. She can't be because she has a right to terminate the pregnancy, which was the motive for the beating in the first place.

 

[Do Miss America]

Evidentally the LAW does not see it as a difference.

Actually the law does see it as a difference because an doctor wouldn't be charged but a boy with a bat is. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

So should people who engage in S&M be prosecuted because it is consent to abuse? Say if a person gets off (sexually) on getting hit by a baseball bat should the person swinging away be charged with a crime?

If serious injuries or a miscarriage occur, then yes.

Also, who did the abusing here anyway? The boy yes, but was he not acting out of desperation as well?

Um, yes and he's being charged.

The problem here is that this girl is not going to be charged with anything. She can't be because she has a right to terminate the pregnancy, which was the motive for the beating in the first place.

Actually she doesn't without parents consent, this is why it was done with a baseball bat. Sorry but I'm not seeing your point.

 

[Irvine511]

Actually she doesn't without parents consent, this is why it was done with a baseball bat. Sorry but I'm not seeing your point.

this case is a perfect example of why abortion must remain safe and legal (and hopefully rare), and also why parental notification laws do damage to those most vulnerable: the kids themselves.

we can argue about how the world should be -- she shouldn't have gotten pregnant; she shouldn't have had sex; she should have been able to tell her parents -- but the world is messy, and ugly, and women have always had abortions, women will always have abortions, so let's deal with reality, make abortions safe and legal, and work to create the changes in society that will hopefully reduce the number of women who seek abortions.

how do we do that? certainly not by outlawing abortion.

1. comprehensive sex education
2. empowering teenage girls -- letting them know they are valued for more than their sexuality
3. helping women achieve more financial independence
4. addressing inequality in heterosexual relationships, particularly as it correlates to socioeconomic status

and many more.

in April, i marched (along with 900,000 people) in DC for women's right to choose. as you could expect, there were anti-choice protesters lining the streets, and it was amazingly intense. i did, however, see one anti-choice sign that i agreed with: "abortion is evidence that we have failed women." yes. i think both sides can agree on that. but outlawing abortion isn't the way to prevent them, as this case clearly demonstrates. what started as, i think, a way to debate the "personhood" or "citizenship" of a fetus has revealed itself to be a reaffirmation (for me) of exactly why abortion was made legal to begin with.

 

[thacraic]

Actually the law does see it as a difference because an doctor wouldn't be charged but a boy with a bat is. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

If serious injuries or a miscarriage occur, then yes.

Um, yes and he's being charged.



Actually she doesn't without parents consent, this is why it was done with a baseball bat. Sorry but I'm not seeing your point.

Yes I realize the law sees it as a difference. I worded my post badly. To bad you didn't put my entire post in your quote and you would have shown where I stated the law sees it as differet hence the manner in which the charges have been brought.

As far as the miscarriage statement. If this kid was just beating on this girl with a bat and nothing happened, he would have been charged with assualt. You were going on about abuse. I made a remark on it. Then I pointed out that you are trying to say that consenual forms of abuse should be prosecuted. Now you are saying if it's in the case of a miscarriage. If someone is abused and has a miscarriage, the person responsible will be tried for feticide as is happening here. If someone abuses someone against their will they are tried with assualt. So I do not see YOUR point.

Yes he is being charged. But you were saying that out of desperation people will do ANYTHING almost like saying she is justified but he is not. That is another point I am making. They should both be charged.

Well considering that this girl did not get permission from her parents to have this done, then she was acting outside of the law, and should be charged for that but.... she is NOT.

 

[nbcrusader]

The logic behind your arguments is scary. A person may go ahead and do what they are not suppose to do and get hurt, so let's make it legal.

And no parental consent??? A minor needs parental consent to get a bloody earring! And you want the law to "protect them" from their parents??

I know the emotional cases and dramatic stories you sited before. But they make a lousy basis for principled action.

 

[Irvine511]

The logic behind your arguments is scary. A person may go ahead and do what they are not suppose to do and get hurt, so let's make it legal.

And no parental consent??? A minor needs parental consent to get a bloody earring! And you want the law to "protect them" from their parents??

I know the emotional cases and dramatic stories you sited before. But they make a lousy basis for principled action.

getting an earring and getting an abortion are two hugely different matters, and when you start to encounter situations where the parent might also be the father of the child, then parental notification laws make less and less sense.

i have no idea what you're saying in the first sentence.

could you explicate the last two sentences? abortion is always emotional, probably often dramatic. to me, woman bleeding to death in her apartment because of a botch back-alley abortion is a perfectly logical basis for the legality of abortion.

 

[nbcrusader]

A system of law is based on principles, not emotion.

 

[Irvine511]

A system of law is based on principles, not emotion.

and this is inconsistent how, exactly?

 

[Do Miss America]

As far as the miscarriage statement. If this kid was just beating on this girl with a bat and nothing happened, he would have been charged with assualt. You were going on about abuse. I made a remark on it. Then I pointed out that you are trying to say that consenual forms of abuse should be prosecuted. Now you are saying if it's in the case of a miscarriage. If someone is abused and has a miscarriage, the person responsible will be tried for feticide as is happening here. If someone abuses someone against their will they are tried with assualt. So I do not see YOUR point.

Yes so called consent or not he should be prosecuted, no matter what. He's being charged with feticide because a baby was lost and it's the higher of the two charges.

Yes he is being charged. But you were saying that out of desperation people will do ANYTHING almost like saying she is justified but he is not. That is another point I am making. They should both be charged.

When did I ever say desperation was an excuse? I said consent under desperation I wouldn't exactly consider sound mind.

Well considering that this girl did not get permission from her parents to have this done, then she was acting outside of the law, and should be charged for that but.... she is NOT.

But for what, stupidity? I think it would be very difficult to prove her part in it. How do you prove her consent or that she wasn't temporarily insane?

 

[Do Miss America]

The logic behind your arguments is scary. A person may go ahead and do what they are not suppose to do and get hurt, so let's make it legal.

And no parental consent??? A minor needs parental consent to get a bloody earring! And you want the law to "protect them" from their parents??

Is it illegal for minors to have sex without consent?

 

[nbcrusader]

and this is inconsistent how, exactly?

You've based your support of abortion on very emotional terms.


And let me try to clear up some of the confusion about my comment on the logic presented:

1. Act "X" is illegal.
2. Some people want to do act "X" despite it being illegal
3. When these people do act "X", they sometime hurt themselves
4. Therefore, we should make act "X" legal to prevent the harm.



In all that logic, you've ignore the harm done to the unborn child.