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Old 01-05-2005, 01:51 PM   #16
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Originally posted by LoveTown
If it was done in a clinic it would have been seen as a woman doing as she wishes with her body and it would be protected under the laws of this country.

Well, this is true of any medical procedure, though. Say I need open heart surgery, but don't have insurance. I don't want have money to deal with the medical bills so I get my neighbor to agree to do it for free. He has no medical training, so I die. My neighbor's going right to prison. Hell, even if I somehow live, he's probably going to prison.

But if I get it done in a clinic, it's protected by the laws of this country, even if I die anyway. For better or for worse, an abortion is a medical procedure, and it's legal for a woman to have one. But like any medical procedure that I know of, it's illegal to perform with a baseball bat by someone who isn't a doctor. So I really don't see a contradiction - at least not a legal one.
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Old 01-05-2005, 02:07 PM   #17
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BonoVox,

It's not fair to say, "If you can't see the difference then obviously a discussion is useless." Discussion is about sharing different points of view and weighing their validity. Instead of stating why there is a difference, you simply dismissed any further discusion.

I think my drugs analogy holds up but I'll present another one just for you...
Alcohol laws are bad because the laws force teens to engage in illegal practices to get alcohol which can bring harm to them and others. Teens are going to do drink and stupid alcohol laws are not going to change that.
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Old 01-05-2005, 02:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
BonoVox,

It's not fair to say, "If you can't see the difference then obviously a discussion is useless." Discussion is about sharing different points of view and weighing their validity. Instead of stating why there is a difference, you simply dismissed any further discusion.
My point was that your angle to this story was very apparant from the beginning. When one sees no difference in beating someone with a baseball bat(something that is illegal in anyone's book) and going into a doctors office for a procedure then I'm sorry but all logic is gone and I see no point in having a discussion. You carry the burden of proof. You have to somehow prove that beating someone with a bat over a two week period is somehow the same as going to a clinic under the watchful umbrella of a professional staff. Until you do that then yes there is no point in a discussion.
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher

I think my drugs analogy holds up but I'll present another one just for you...
Alcohol laws are bad because the laws force teens to engage in illegal practices to get alcohol which can bring harm to them and others. Teens are going to do drink and stupid alcohol laws are not going to change that.
No it doesn't because in order for an analogy to work it must compare to similar circumstances. Ones that's illegal for and one that is legal is not an analogy.

Now your alcohol analogy works somewhat. But I would argue that until there are laws against having sex at a certain age then Sheltie's argument stands. I'm not saying that I approve of teens having sex getting pregnant and getting abortions, but if there isn't any law against them having sex without parents consent then why a law for abortions without consent?
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Old 01-05-2005, 02:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


I think my drugs analogy holds up but I'll present another one just for you...
Alcohol laws are bad because the laws force teens to engage in illegal practices to get alcohol which can bring harm to them and others. Teens are going to do drink and stupid alcohol laws are not going to change that.

i know this was for BVS, but i'd like a crack at it.

yes, i think alcohol laws surrounding teens are hypocritical. kids can have sex, get married, and get their limbs blown off in Iraq when they're 18 but not drink alcohol. it's because we both glorify alcohol too our teenagers in order to sell products, and then turn around and tell them "don't touch!" that encourages the sneaky use and abuse of alcohol, that causes kids to sneak around, drink heavily in the basement, and often make bad decisions. if we were to do two things, one cultural one legal, then we'd go a long ways towards protecting our teenagers and helping them make good choices instead of presenting them with a contradictory, schizophrenic message that says "Drink! But Don't! We can! We have fun! But you can't! But you'd have fun if you did!" (the same thing goes for sex).

1. lower the drinking age to 19
2. change our attitudes towards drinking and focus on responsible consumption of alcohol and (dare i say it ... you jumped all over me a while ago for suggesting that sex is pleasurable) valuing things like wine and beer as cultural products and compliments to fine eating -- what steak isn't made better with a full-bodied, ass-kicking red wine? let's focus on enjoying alcohol the way our European friends do, rather than associating it with getting shitty at a Packers game.

and this is easily translatable to sex/sex ed/abortion, but i'll leave that alone for now.
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Old 01-05-2005, 03:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
Sheltie,

Using your line of reasoning then.....

Drug laws are bad because the laws force teens to engage in illegal practices to get drugs which can bring harm to them and others. Teens are going to do drugs and stupid drug laws are not going to change that.

Would you agree?
You are not comparing apples to apples. Teens having sex and getting pregnet is not the same as using drugs.
Making a choice to engage in using drugs is a whole different matter and has nothing to do with abortion laws.
A teen pregnancy can be devastating.
I am not saying I agree with teens having sex nor do I agree with them doing drugs. But its not the same.
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Old 01-05-2005, 04:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
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... been a noble expression of her rights.

Can someone who is pro-abortion please explain to me why there is a difference.


Those are two of the scariest statements I've ever read in here.
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:58 PM   #22
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Max Fisher, do you see no difference in a medical practioner carrying out an abortion in a sterile, clean and safe environment and a young boy assaulting a pregnant girl to cause a miscarriage?

Do American laws cover these 2 examples the same way? It seems not, and I ask this genuinely. Common bloody sense should indicate that this is far different from the much debated issue of abortion in it's own right, and while this is an extreme in the entire abortion debate it can't be viewed as legal. Surely. Jesus.

I'm trying to follow the other view's line of reasoning here and I can see how the result is the same tragic one. But it's the method if anything surely, which is so abhorrent.
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Old 01-05-2005, 07:02 PM   #23
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Forgot to add I fall more into the 'life' camp than the 'choice' camp. Which might make my reply void as you wanted pro choice. Even though you said pro abortion, I'd assume you realise that very few, and infact probably no one in here is actually all gung-ho for abortion. It's the choice that gets argued for. None of us have to understand it, but we should try and respect it at least.
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Old 01-05-2005, 07:14 PM   #24
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disgusting

why wasn't the boy's mother charged too?
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Old 01-05-2005, 07:33 PM   #25
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Oh, good, an abortion thread.

:: resigns self to having no life for the next few days ::
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:06 PM   #26
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Oh, good, an abortion thread.

:: resigns self to having no life for the next few days ::
I'm sorry -- that made me laugh.

I think I'm just gonna stay out of it this time...at least for now.

Should I start a "Canada's going to Hell cause it allows gay marriage and has more lenient marajuana laws" thread to divert discussion?
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:12 PM   #27
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Oh, that's a good one.

I think we had a contest a while back for the "ultimate FYM thread" or something like that.
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:46 PM   #28
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well, we made it 5 days into the new year without one, at least.

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Old 01-05-2005, 09:57 PM   #29
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It's bad enough that people abuse the legality of abortion, but when baseball bats are used, it's just sickening. What kind of crack do you have to be on to have someone beat you and your baby with a baseball bat? This was not an accidental miscarriage. This was a plot to kill.

Sorry for staying on topic, but this is news, and I don't see why we should avoid a discussion, especially when it's centered on the topic.
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Old 01-05-2005, 10:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
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It's bad enough that people abuse the legality of abortion, but when baseball bats are used, it's just sickening.
What? This is assault, this has nothing to do with the abusing of legal abortion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
What kind of crack do you have to be on to have someone beat you and your baby with a baseball bat? This was not an accidental miscarriage. This was a plot to kill.

[/B]
Who's claiming accidental miscarriage?
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