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Old 01-07-2005, 08:11 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra

And there is no way in hell there are enough adoptive homes for all of them. Just something to ponder.
So kill the bastards?

Sorry, I was adopted.....I have a strong opinion on this.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:24 PM   #197
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


So kill the bastards?

Sorry, I was adopted.....I have a strong opinion on this.
No. I'm just pointing out that it's not so simple to find places for all those unwanted babies. So restricting abortion should be the last in a very, very long list of things to do to both reduce the number of abortions and also to make sure that the vast majority of pregnancies are desired. Just tightening restrictions on abortions will make this type of news story far more common.
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:04 PM   #198
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The 'back alley' legend is very overused and has become more of a myth than a fact with any basis. It's like a bogeyman in the closet you can't prove exists. First, that was in the days before birth control, they would never happen again. Also, even in the pre-RvW days, there were doctors, real, clean doctors, who would 'take care of' a girl's 'problem' on the sly and label it simply a 'procedure.' They got around it by calling it a "D and C" (dialation and cutterage(sp) which a common thing women get done to shed old built up uterine lining that can cause bad periods or even infections. If someone asked a doctor for a D and C, he didn't have to know (or care, or ignore) that she knew she was in the early stages of pregnancy. I have heard this from people who were around back then and knew people it happened to (no not only rich people) Another common method I heard from old people is that as soon as a period was missed, of the baby wasn't wanted, the woman would strain hard on the toilet in exaggerated pushes while trying to shit, and that almost always brought on the period. Then there is the coat hanger, or so they say.

But back on topic, I don't feel this girl was abused at all because she went along with it, not only once but 22 times over 2 weeks!
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Old 01-08-2005, 03:49 AM   #199
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So let me get this straight.....

#1 Back alley abortions were less common based on what evidence your hearsay? One back alley abortion is too many.

#2 This is acceptable to you, that a doctor LIE, perform the wrong operation intentionally to kill the fetus. I find this more repulsive than out and out abortion. We will be a more MORAL society by pushing abortions (like gays) back into the closets so we do not know about them.

#3 The health care system back in the day is NOT the health care system of today. I am going to assume you are for universal health care. No one I know working at McDonalds is receiving health care that allows them the access to GOOD CLEAN Dr.'s that I can afford at $10. My two kidney stone surgerie $0.00. So if you are in support of a system in which EVERY AMERICAN is receiving this "Health Care" then I think you may have a point. I would say this to you, Dr's are now monitored by the HMO's and their ma;practice Insurance Companies. Exactly how many law suits will it take to push the "mythical alley abortions" into reality.

#4 I am sure you are to ask that the State Of Texas reincert all of the chapters and lessons on the BIRTH CONTROL that you are talking about stopping all of these pregnancies. Since Texas practically controls the curiculum, information on birth control is no longer being taught, but good old effective abstinance is. I would also like to know if you again support universal health care to make the birth control pills more affordable to the yourng women who are going to have to pay for them so they do not get pregnant. I am also wondering if you would stand firm against the White House which has worldwide cut off aid to established organizations in Africa because they are not teaching abstinance, but birth control.

Just curious......I mean since my point is mythological.....I am curious how your fairy tale solution would work
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Old 01-08-2005, 03:51 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


No. I'm just pointing out that it's not so simple to find places for all those unwanted babies.
I understand that, so it becomes easier to get rid of the fetus than to have to take care of it and hope it gets adopted.
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:14 AM   #201
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AS for the argument that the Back Alley Abortion is a MYTH.......

Would you say that late term abortions are as well? There is evidence that Back Alley abortions are occuring for women who have gone past the societally accepted point at which an abortion should occur.

[Q]The British Pregnancy Advisory Service, the NHS-funded charity that is the country's largest abortion provider, is facilitating illegal late terminations of healthy pregnancies for hundreds of women without medical justification, an investigation by The Telegraph has revealed.
Extensive covert video and audio recordings exposed a horrific underground industry in which women carrying healthy fetuses beyond the 24-week legal cutoff and who want to end their pregnancies for "social" reasons, travel to an abortion clinic in Spain on the recommendation of BPAS. The organization refers them there as a matter of "policy."[/Q]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:17 AM   #202
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No...our policies have NO EFFECT on people.

[Q]US exports anti-abortion policy

By Nadene Ghouri
Social Affairs Specialist
BBC Radio 5


Wendy Wright is a genuinely concerned woman. Concerned Women of America is the name of the political lobby group she works for. Fiercely anti-abortion, their aim is to bring biblical values to US policy.
"It's funny how the moral positions are usually the healthier, safer and politically sensible positions," she says, speaking at her home in Washington.

On his first business day in office, with the support of voters like Wendy, President George W Bush started a war few people have heard about - his war on abortion.


The anti-abortion movement is growing stronger under Bush

He reinstated an old policy from the Reagan days called the Mexico City policy or "gag rule".

The rule states that the United States will not allow its overseas aid money to be used to fund groups that carry out or provide any kind of advice or information about abortion.

Hundreds of women's health organisations in the poorest nations of the world - places where maternal mortality and infant death are high - faced a tough choice. Either sign the gag rule and be silenced on abortion, or refuse and lose millions of dollars in US aid.

Most refused to sign. As a result, thousands of family planning clinics across the developing world have closed their doors, making access to vital contraceptives hard to come by.

The US aim was to cut abortion worldwide, but has it worked?

Back-street abortions

I travelled to Ethiopia - a country where abortion is illegal but where a recent study at Addis Ababa hospital found half of all female deaths there were caused by botched back-street abortions. Here the cost of silence can be high.

If they are forced to give birth they throw the children into latrines or abandon them for the hyenas to eat them

Amare Badada, Ethiopian Family Guidance Association

One of the most upsetting moments was standing outside a one-room tin hut where Asmara, a prostitute, had bled to death just hours earlier.

Aged 22, she received condoms from the local Marie Stopes clinic. It closed when the US cut its cash after it failed to sign. She got pregnant and died.

"She had no money to go to hospital, so became too weak to move, then she died," her friend told me.

On the other side of Addis Ababa is Molu, living with nine children in one room. She has been told one more baby will kill her.

But the clinic that gives her the pill for free is shutting. There is no other clinic.

Molu says if she gets pregnant again, she will carry out her own abortion with wire.

"Either way I will die," she says with chilling fatality.

'Hypocritical'

In the region of Nazareth in Ethiopia's highland plains, I met Amare Badada of the Ethiopian Family Guidance Association.

Mr Badada lists rape, forced marriage and genital mutilation as part of daily life for women.

"These women will always find a way to abort somehow," he said. "If they are forced to give birth they throw the children into latrines or abandon them for the hyenas to eat them."


Marie Stopes says the policy has not cut the number of abortions

Mr Badada refused to sign the gag rule, and has since watched his organisation's family planning clinics close down one after the other. In the region of Nazareth, there were 54 clinics last year. Next year there will be just 10.

Each clinic serves approximately 500 women who walk an average of 10 kilometres (six miles) to get there. The impact of the closures is immense.

"Under the gag rule, I can treat a woman who comes bleeding after an illegal abortion but I am not allowed to warn her of the dangers before she goes," Mr Badada said. "We should not be told what to think and say.

"It is hypocritical to allow US taxpayers' money to be used to fund abortion in the States but not here.

"The US is driving women into the hands of back-street abortionists."

Getachew Bekele, Ethiopian director of Marie Stopes International, who also refused, says: "It hasn't worked to cut abortion. All it has done is deprive women of condoms."

Abstinence

A key aim of the American anti-abortion lobby is to silence Marie Stopes, which is lobbying to overturn the abortion laws in Ethiopia and other places where it is illegal.

Under President Bush, the anti-abortion movement is stronger than ever.

Supporters believe every woman has the right to have as many babies as God plans. They also believe the high death-rate of mothers in labour, and the numbers of unwanted babies can be tackled with an alternative solution - abstinence.

Mr Bush has won plaudits for his promise to spend $15bn to fight Aids, but few people know that one-third of the money set aside for prevention is to go to faith-based, abstinence-only programmes.

But not all Americans agree. Wendy Turnbull works for Population Action International - a pro-choice lobby group.

"How can we look Africa in the eye and say here you go - here's the money, but we tell you how to spend it. How arrogant is that?"

But Wendy Wright remains convinced America knows best.

"It's not that I know what is right for other women," she says. "It's that I know what is right."


[/Q]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3028820.stm
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:26 AM   #203
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In researching back alley abortions....i found that the way they estimate the #'s is based on the number of deaths. A number that was very high in the 40's and dropped as new medicine and technology appeared on the scene. If this is what supports the MYTH not being real, it is very innacurate. There is no way to tell the number of people who were doing it, based on deaths. Fact is they occured.
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Old 01-08-2005, 05:11 AM   #204
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Wendy Wright needs a smack in the head. Hard. Banning abortion is so convenient, in a twisted theoretical way but it's a damn sight easier to pour money and resources into free education and contraceptives.


and thanks stammer, for a few pages back
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Old 01-08-2005, 05:23 AM   #205
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To Dreadsox and BVS...

My apologies for bringing both your names into my post. It had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I was at fault.

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 01-08-2005, 05:46 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic
To Dreadsox and BVS...

My apologies for bringing both your names into my post. It had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I was at fault.

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 01-08-2005, 06:23 AM   #207
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I'm saying the 'back alley' thing of the 40's was not so common as the fearmongers want you to believe, and I even listed other ways people 'got rid of' babies in those days. What I mean is that in these days of all the birth control that was not available in those days and the way doctors work around it there is no way it would ever happen again on a large scale. Of course you will have isolated incidents like this baseball thing, but you can't stop everything and everyone.

I think you can tell by my posts I don't think any method is a good way to kill an unborn child. Nor is there a good time of pregnancy. I agree that late term/partial birth abortions occur and they are pure murder. I have no sympathy for the bitch who asks for one or the doctor who performs one. They both belong in prison.
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Old 01-08-2005, 06:48 AM   #208
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How sensative of you...ever think someone here may have had to make that awful decision.
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Old 01-08-2005, 07:21 AM   #209
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U2Kitten, did you even READ my post a couple of pages back?

There's no need for that kind of language. And Dread is right--although these procedures are incredibly rare to begin with, and even more rarely are they ELECTIVE, you never know who here may have had to make such a heartwrenching decision. You just never know.

(Yes, I'm back from the bar, awake, and ready to moderate again.)
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Old 01-08-2005, 07:41 AM   #210
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wow, i've just read through this entire thread in one go so forgive me if i drag a few things out from pages back... i'm just gonna punt out my opinion in one long go and leave it at that because i really wanna try avoid the pro/anti arguments.

IMO what needs to be adressed firstly is the laws that led this young couple to feel the need to take a baseball bat to the problem in the first place. its very wrong and very sad that these kids, having decided they didnt want a baby, felt they had no other option. parental consent needs to be addressed - its a difficult issue but one that needs to be worked out. i know recently here in the UK there was an uproar because a 14 (i think) year old girl went to her school who organised an abortion for her without telling her parents. the mother subsequently found out and it all kicked off. all i'm saying here is that there are very many young adults, children may even be a better word, who for whatever reason, feel they can't go to their parents in this situation, and therefore need to be given a better option. i dont think school is necessarily it and this particular case was quite badly handled but thats just an example.
i do feel that had these kids been able to go to a clinic on their own accord they would have been given proper information and education about the choice they were going to make (which could have changed the outcome perhaps, or perhaps not) and a proper support structure regardless of what decision they then decided to make.

that said...
i feel the act they ultimiately went through with is beyond barbaric. I'm trying very hard not to call people names so let me just say i'm dumbstruck by people on here who do not see the difference between carrying out a legal procedure in a controlled, clean environment and beating someone with a bat (please note by "someone" i mean the woman not the fetus - i dont want to get into the "is a fetus a person" debate cause i'll get pissed off).
theres a quote somewhere back there that i cant find but basically there's been a few comments on "oh because a doctor does it its all fine then?". well yes, thats why we have legally and professionally trained doctors. if you want to argue the laws of abortion than do so seperately but we have doctors so that they can perform procedures that no one else should be going near. whether thats a transplant or tumour removal or an abortion doesnt matter, doctors are there and trained and subsequently governed by laws which you may or may not agree with to do such things.
theres a blatant and strong and very clear difference between a baseball bat and a doctor, regardless of whether you think abortion is right, i dont see how anyone can disgree or argue with that.

and that brings me to my last point - the difference is the barbaric nature in which this was performed. its not even like it can be attributed to a once off panic driven state of mind offense. it happened consistenly over the course of 2 weeks - theres a lot of thought and a full consciousness of what you're doing involved in that.
i'm gonna try very difficultly to align it to something else... bear with me here and dont read anything into my choice of example.
if someone commits murder, very often juries and judges take into account the nature of a murder. for example a guy who shoots someone in the chest and kills them will probably get off with a lighter sentence than a guy who a la Silence of the Lambs skins someone and makes a body suit out of them or who routinely cuts someone up and cooks their organs or something. sorry to be sick but you see the point. while the outcome is the same - murder - there is a stark difference and juries will normally take this into account. same for these kids - we're all pretty sickened that someone can do that with a baseball bat (aren't we?? please say we ALL are!) and this was a very calculated long term offence. while i pointed out above how sad it is that the couple felt this was their only option i still think the manner in which it was done needs to be taken into account and thats the reason why they should be charged. i fully agree with the states decision on charging the boy as well as the possible lenght of time - till he's 21. i dont think any longer is necessary as we have to bear in mind that these 2 people are after all, only kids and need to be given a chance to reform their lives. in fact i'd say possibly only till he's18 maybe.... i dunno, thats why i'm not a judge!
i also think she is just as liable as he is and should suffer the same consequences - it was a 2 person action, but as someones pointed out it might be difficult to prove. although if they can't prove her consent then surely the boy should also be charged with abuse to here - she either let him do it or she didnt. if she did, she suffers the same punishment he does, if she didnt he should get nailed for abuse as well.
as for the mother - i think she should be charged but minimally. unfortunately by the time it came to her it was too late and she was probably only trying to look after her son but still perhaps made the wrong choice

its a really tough one i think - its all a vicious circle.
what they did was sick but they shouldnt have felt forced into that position either but they should also be charged and punished but they're also very young and possibly not mature enough to make a decent decision or be fully aware of the consequences of their actions but it was a pronlonged action showing some sort of conscious decision but i reckon the emotional scaring might be damaging enough but then again they went ahead for 6 months as if nothing was wrong but at the same time no one really knows the psycological damage these kids might be carrying around inside but then again they beat an unborn fetus with a baseball bat and so on and so on and so on.

cue everyone jumping down my throat for some reason or another...
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