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Old 01-07-2005, 06:16 AM   #151
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Originally posted by U2Kitten

If she were the same age at an abortion clinic you'd respect her opinion, yet you don't accept her choice of a baseball bat?
At least she would be safe that's my point and has been since the beginning sorry you haven't caught on by now.
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Originally posted by U2Kitten

And yes, I am only trying to point out the ignorance, hyypocrisy and lack of holding water of the whole fucking 'choice' argument! (did you miss my /extreme sarcasm/ comment?) See, you people are always going on about how an abortion is a choice, and while you may not agree with it, it is not your decision to make, it's the girl/woman in question. So here this girl has made her choice, and you are against it? Gasp! So you only call it a choice if it's a choice you agree with?
And I'm the ignorant and hypocritical one? Wow, you don't even bother reading peoples posts anymore you just jump head in with your condescending tone and crap theories.

What part of her choice not being legal did you not understand?
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:22 AM   #152
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
As long as no one posts the stupid, ridiculous, hypocritical term 'anti choice' I can hold my temper. But once that shows up, I explode. It's one of my life's goals to point out the ignorance of justifying abortion with the word 'choice' and to get people to fess up and call it what it really is. But you don't have to worry about me anymore, I have some serious personal business the rest of the day and will not be able to get to the computer! Hopefully someone else will flare up and the thread will be closed before I get back
Inherent in the term "pro-choice" is the recognition that abortion is one of the choices being advocated, in that respect it doesn't cover anything up. Pro-abortion isn't an appropriate description as it implies that anyone who isn't absolutely opposed to abortion at all times is automatically in favour of abortion in any circumstance.

People who oppose abortion are welcome to describe themselves in whatever terms they choose, whether that's pro-life, anti-abortion or any other description that pleases them. Why not extend the same courtesy to those of us who believe abortion should be available as one of several choices open to women?

To get back on topic...

How can anyone deny that there is a vast difference between a woman making a conscious decision to have an abortion - a medical procedure carried out by trained healthcare professionals in a safe environment - and a frightened young woman allowing someone to beat her with a baseball bat in order to cause a miscarriage? Will you all be advocating the legalisation of hard drugs on the basis that it's legal for a doctor to prescribe diamorphine to a patient so it should be legal for a person to buy heroin (diamorphine by another name) from a dealer?
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:38 AM   #153
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I would really like to get in a discussion that deals with this specific case. Since most of us would agree that using a baseball bat is an awful method for an abortion, I have a few questions and would like to receive some replies, and get different perspectives.

1. What should this couple have done differently? Should they have used birth control, practiced abstinence, received better sex education, or did they do everything right?

2. Do you agree with the young man being charged and not the young woman? Why or why not?

3. Has the term "women's rights" been put to good use, or do you think it has been abused?
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:00 AM   #154
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why am I being called out on this, I think there's been condescention on both sides. Please don't drag me into your other discussions, thank you.

The reason I am pointing you and dread out is because I was accused on another thread by both you and him of being condescending.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:27 AM   #155
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For macphisto's perusal:

1. What should this couple have done differently? Should they have used birth control, practiced abstinence, received better sex education, or did they do everything right?

The method of abortion for starters should have been done differently. I dont think anyone in here so far would disagree. Yes they should have used birth control as should ANYONE engaging in sex who doesn't want a resultant pregnancy. As for whether they received the appropriate sex ed is unknown as many know about it, yet still fall into unwanted pregnancies. Abstinance is a choice not often seen as viable, and doesn't really need to be when there are a plethora of safe sex options available. Did they do everything right? Too hard to say. Easy to say no, and certainly the bat was not doing anything right by anyone's standards (except theirs) surely.

2. Do you agree with the young man being charged and not the young woman? Why or why not?

No. Emphatically no. Both were participants. Both need to wear that.

3. Has the term "women's rights" been put to good use, or do you think it has been abused?

Tricky. Women should always have rights. Always. The thorn of the fetus's rights is always going to rise up. Unfortunately in the debate of abortion, both can never be met in a mutually beneficial arrangement. One side will always put either the right of the fetus or the woman above the other. In terms of those who think the fetus's rights (which are life) need to go beyond the mother's, then it is placing secondary (and logical to that side's camp) to the "woman's rights". Which has to be viewed as fair in some way, yes? It is life after all we are talking about.

Unfortunately, one has to be put above the other as either the woman is going to suffer the immense emotional trauma of having a child she doesn't want, or a fetus will be killed. Both sides lose so much. One loses a life, and one loses life as she knows it. Which she still does anyway as anyone who has suffered the pain of an abortion will know.

No one wins.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:40 AM   #156
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1. What should this couple have done differently? Should they have used birth control, practiced abstinence, received better sex education, or did they do everything right?

Birth control as a last resort, because obviously teaching abstinence didn't do it for these kids. I would also say better sex education as well.

2. Do you agree with the young man being charged and not the young woman? Why or why not?

Technically, women often want men to guide the relationship, so in that principle, it's tempting to agree with it. I do think the young female should receive counseling at least, but the legal system is not going to enforce that. This young boy should be taught tough love so he doesn't repeat his extreme patterns in his behavior. Very much of this hideous crime was done on his part, therefore it is his responsibility. When a man (or in this case, a kid) allows his relationship to be governed with a baseball bat to replace any form of decency, it is wrong, and this kid allowed that pathetic line of thinking to get him in trouble.

3. Has the term "women's rights" been put to good use, or do you think it has been abused?

Both.

The female suffrage movement allowed women to vote and earn more respectable positions in our society. New Zealand beat us to that movement, but countries such as Switzerland didn't grant it until 1972. Now there is talk of spreading this freedom to the Middle East, which in my opinion, REAL WOMEN'S RIGHTS should be the focus. Rights to speak their mind, protect themselves, and have the same opportunities in their lives as men do.

It has been abused in the US for sure, in ways that I find outrageous. We use it as a scapegoat to disguise the true meaning of a major political issue to make the word sound comfortable and appealing. Same thing is happening with the word "choice." Nobody is "anti-choice." I think we all believe a choice is to be made, we just can't agree on when the time should occur.

In doing this, we are actually demeaning human rights. I think it's a perversion to compare a woman's right to vote to the fact that almost every third baby conceived in America is killed by abortion. (http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_...em_both_17.asp) Thanks for making "women's rights" a partisan term.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:44 AM   #157
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


Technically, women often want men to guide the relationship
i stopped reading right here. give me a freaking break.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:46 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
[B]
Birth control as a last resort,

?
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:48 AM   #159
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i stopped reading right here. give me a freaking break.
Really? You think women should be the ones to propose to us?
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:52 AM   #160
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How many of the world's 3 billion odd women have you asked this question to, to take this from a gross generalisation to a worthwhile or valid point?
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:55 AM   #161
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Since the post was vague and didn't answer any of my questions, thankfully only one of them.
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Old 01-07-2005, 09:02 AM   #162
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Are you talking about your post which I quoted, where you answered your questions? I confuse easily lol.
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Old 01-07-2005, 09:05 AM   #163
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Well, I think I got confused by that as well when you remembered the question mark, but you forgot to ask the question.
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Old 01-07-2005, 09:11 AM   #164
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Haha now I'm really confused.
The question mark post was my shorthand way of asking what you meant by birth control as a last resort.

Then the next post was me really being a smartarse by saying you can't say 'women want [insert example]' unless you really know by research etc that as a rule women DO want [your example].

I dont think this has become any clearer It's 4am here...
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Old 01-07-2005, 09:15 AM   #165
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Oh sooooooo sorry I chose not to be subtle and vague in my namecalling. Actually saying you are condescending is not namecalling, it is stating a fact. Pointing out that you are being condescending does not weaken my argument. (Note to BVS and Dread, what Irivine said IS CONDESCENDING, but I really DOUBT either of you two will have ANYTHING to say about it.) HOW does it weaken my argument. I think I need to get something straight here. In this forum it is ok to call people bigots or homophobes because of their belief system (which is twisted to "prove" the lame ass accusations) but saying someone is condescending is out. But no wait, even then its not, it is only when people with certain views say it that it is not acceptable. Gotcha!

I used the quotes BECAUSE science says the life cycle begins at conception yet ironically science also says life begins after the 1st trimester. That is why i referred to it as "scientific fact", because one view is in complete contrast to the other. You do not need to be a scientist to KNOW that. All you need is the ability to read the written word.

Oh an just some words of advice to everyone, if you are not a musician do not attempt to analyze Edge's guitar solos. If you are not a politician do not talk politics. If you are not a pastor do not speak about theology etc. etc. Thank you Irvine for pointing out that if we are not professionals in the area of which we speak, we really shouldn't have an opinion on things.

well, i suppose this explains a tremendous amount.

the fact that you bring up other threads and drag them into this one is evidence of just how personally you're taking these discussions. i've never called you a homophobe, dear, but i will absolutely call a *belief* homophobic -- Biblically based or not. i know the anger feels good, but your coherence erodes every time you work yourself up into a righteous frenzy.

i don't think it's name calling but stating a fact that you really need to grow up.

i'm totally done with this post.
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