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Old 04-06-2007, 09:17 AM   #46
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Originally posted by maycocksean

But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.
Well that's the FYM way You make a very good point-if one is going to object to the religious message and/or content, it's only fair to object to any sort of content that promotes any sort of similar message. I think the key question would be what the standard is for determining what is considered similar, and what would be comparable. I have no issue with a two mommies flyer (I believe kids need to learn that some kids have two mommies or two daddies, and that teaching that is not "promoting" homosexuality, it's merely the way life is-just like some have one parent, some have biracial families, etc)-and if you're going to allow religious content I don't see how you could disallow that. I would imagine there would be boundaries created by the school and the court for the two mommies/daddies flyer just as there would be for the religious ones as allowed by this decision.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:22 AM   #47
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That does not include giving them the right to free speech. The Bill of Rights does not apply to children. Kids can't even vote! So I don't understand why they are trying to exercise first amendment rights at school.
This is a 100% incorrect statement about the application of the Bill of Rights in a school environment. Students do have the right to free speech. School systems in the eyes of the law are an extension of the government due to the fact that tax money pays for the school system. When a school system is acting to restrict the rights of a student in the realm of free speech in the eyes of the court it is an extension of the government. Now in the past the school system has been given quite a bit of wiggle room, and can operate with slightly more authority than the governement can operate in the general public. My point is that students 100% have the right to freedom of speech, however, schools can restrict in certain circumstances.

The fact that the student was advised by the parent to only hand out the pamphlet during lunch or recess time is a result of good coaching. Most of the teeth that administrators have in these instances comes from disruption of the primary focus the school education. Handing out the pamphlets during non instuctional time may very well be the reason the court ruled in the student's favor. The school must prove that this caused some type of disruption to the operation of the school or impacted the learning environment in some manner.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:29 AM   #48
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Originally posted by onebloodonelife
Most fourth graders don't have a mind of their own...
How many fourth graders do you know or have you known? The ones I have had the pleasure of knowing are some of the most intelligent people I have EVER met.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:42 AM   #49
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


This is a 100% incorrect statement about the application of the Bill of Rights in a school environment. Students do have the right to free speech. School systems in the eyes of the law are an extension of the government due to the fact that tax money pays for the school system. When a school system is acting to restrict the rights of a student in the realm of free speech in the eyes of the court it is an extension of the government. Now in the past the school system has been given quite a bit of wiggle room, and can operate with slightly more authority than the governement can operate in the general public. My point is that students 100% have the right to freedom of speech, however, schools can restrict in certain circumstances.
Is this across the board or is it statewide? because in my school, they were very strict about freedom of speech. We didn't have it. We couldn't protest on schoolgrounds, and we couldn't wear certain clothes. And I went to a public school. Students do not have 100% freedom of speech if it is restricted by the schools.
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.


just to be clear, i was trying to make the point that -- while, yes, when reading the full text of those fliers i find them easy to mock, and i don't see why i need to tread lightly when people talk to me about lakes of fire -- this girl's parents should at least have some sort of basic self-awareness to predict that they are setting their daughter up for mockery and ridicule.

as for the "two mommies" issue -- i brought that up as a counterpoint to this flier. surely her parents, if they are so concerned about lakes of fire, would find such material as offensive as i, or others, might have found the original fliers? i'm not saying whether or not i think it's appropriate to distribute such fliers, and if/when i adopt my very own Maddox and Zahara, i'm sure as hell not going to send them to school with fliers that are going to amplify whatever difference they might have with their classmates. such evangelicalism is evidence of narcissism on the part of the parents.



also, am i the only one baffled by U2Bama's post? can you explain a bit further? i usually enjoy your posts (despite the easy shots at all of FYM), i'm just not sure what you're trying to say with this one.
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:13 PM   #51
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Originally posted by unico


Is this across the board or is it statewide? because in my school, they were very strict about freedom of speech. We didn't have it. We couldn't protest on schoolgrounds, and we couldn't wear certain clothes. And I went to a public school. Students do not have 100% freedom of speech if it is restricted by the schools.
Depends on when the protest occured. Clothing is an item that is also allowed to be restricted. I am (fingers crossed) soon to be a principal of a school.

Your statement was the Bill of Rights does not apply to children. That is incorrect. As I said, schools have the ability to restrict the right however, the Right exists, is still there, and is not allowed to be completly stomped out.

Tinker v des. Moines 1969
Papish v Bd, of Curators 1973
Bethel School Dist. v. Fraser 1986
Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier 1988


These are all landmaek cases that define the rights of students and Freedom of Speech.

Tinker was specifically about wearing black armbands to school to protest the vietman war. The students won the right to wear the bands and the school lost. The school must prove that there is a disruption to the educational process by the article of clothing and they could not do so with the armband.

Now at the high school, if someone is wearing something quite revelealing, this could be argued that it disrupts the classroom learning environment.
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:41 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


So you'd be against the "two mommies" flyer also?

The issue of at what age people have free speech rights is an interesting question, though. I wouldn't mind seeing that explored more.

But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.
Yes I would.
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Your statement was the Bill of Rights does not apply to children. That is incorrect. As I said, schools have the ability to restrict the right however, the Right exists, is still there, and is not allowed to be completly stomped out.
Congrats on becoming a principal!

You're right, I was perhaps too absolute in my post. But I find it hard to disagree with you when I feel like I am saying the same thing more or less. What I'm saying is that the rights are not 100% the same as they are for adults in these schools, simply because schools can impose restrictions on them. People are already told of school policies (or at least given a copy of them) when they enroll their children in the school. The schools I went to reprimanded students for using swear words (free speech?) as much as they reprimanded students for burning their bras. Ultimately, the school gets to decide which "free speech exercises" disrupt the learning environment, which means that the students who believe they are fully 100% entitled to the same rights on school grounds that their parents have are dellusional.

I'm saying their rights during school hours on school grounds are very different than their rights outside, because the school, as it should, imposes these restrictions on all students.
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Old 04-06-2007, 02:58 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

also, am i the only one baffled by U2Bama's post? can you explain a bit further? i usually enjoy your posts (despite the easy shots at all of FYM), i'm just not sure what you're trying to say with this one.
Are you talking about the lot lizard decal incident? I was just throwing in another case, where my fifth grade class got scolded for passing out "Stomp Out Lot Lizards" decals at school; a different, but parallel situation to the unauthorized distribution of religious tracts by this girl in Rochester or Syracuse or wherever. Now the Gideons did distribute pocket Bibles (Psalms/NT) to students in the lobby one day after school, to students who wanted them.

Regarding the "easy shots at all of FYM," that was just a tip of the hat to what I occasionally see in here, as if we have no Jewish people in Alabama. Perhaps it's good for people to hold ignorant, closed-minded views like that so that if they do ever visit this region, they will be pleasantly surprised. As I also noted, all of the students in my fifth grade class were of some Christian denomination, but we only had 22 students. What's strange about the basis for this "no Jews in Alabama" myth is that we have 4 synagogues in Birmingham! What's up with that? Are they synagogues with no congregants???

It's kind of like how Maycocksean said "But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful." Evangelicals, citizens of Southern states, etc. are all easy and fun targets; I participate in it myself sometimes. But it is highly tolerated in a venue such as this while "easy shots" at other groups are looked down upon. I'm not offended by it, just making observations of it.

~U2Alabama
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:08 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
[B]

Are you talking about the lot lizard decal incident? I was just throwing in another case, where my fifth grade class got scolded for passing out "Stomp Out Lot Lizards" decals at school; a different, but parallel situation to the unauthorized distribution of religious tracts by this girl in Rochester or Syracuse or wherever. Now the Gideons did distribute pocket Bibles (Psalms/NT) to students in the lobby one day after school, to students who wanted them.

thanks for explaining.


[q]Regarding the "easy shots at all of FYM," that was just a tip of the hat to what I occasionally see in here, as if we have no Jewish people in Alabama. Perhaps it's good for people to hold ignorant, closed-minded views like that so that if they do ever visit this region, they will be pleasantly surprised. As I also noted, all of the students in my fifth grade class were of some Christian denomination, but we only had 22 students. What's strange about the basis for this "no Jews in Alabama" myth is that we have 4 synagogues in Birmingham! What's up with that? Are they synagogues with no congregants???[/q]

well, i do think it's true that, statistically, there aren't nearly as many Jews in the south as there are in, say, Westchester County (and it is true that my boyfriend had never met a Jewish person until he moved to DC), but you're absolutely right, there are Jews in the south.

we did all see "Driving Miss Daisy," didn't we?


[q]It's kind of like how Maycocksean said "But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful." Evangelicals, citizens of Southern states, etc. are all easy and fun targets; I participate in it myself sometimes. But it is highly tolerated in a venue such as this while "easy shots" at other groups are looked down upon. I'm not offended by it, just making observations of it.[/q]

i'm not so sure i agree that it's "tolerated" in FYM as opposed to other groups, though you are dealing with the simple fact that white evangelical southerns do not have a history of oppression in the same way that other groups (women, Jews, gays, blacks) do, so i think that's where a stronger resistance to stereotyping of said traditionally marginalized groups comes from. we're more preconditioned to be sensitive to sterotyping of the traditionally marginalized. but i do agree, in essence -- a stereotype is a stereotype, a cheap shot is a cheap shot.

however, i would argue that the political positioning of many evangelicals and their stated political agenda (as determined by those in leadership positions, who of course proclaim to speak for all but we know they do not speak for all) as well as a fundamentalist outlook on things such as, say, Biblical inerrancy or the whole "Jesus is the only way," does, to my mind, invite dialogue and objections -- some of which might be mocking -- in the same way that any political platform invites criticism. and i think it's perfectly legitimate for some groups to feel threatened by this clear political agenda when it seeks either your conversion or destruction, should your life somehow be lived in opposition to a specific set of "rules."

thus, i think the fliers this poor little girl was handing out were deserving of ridicule. i see no reason to be respectful of a belief that is, at it's core, disrespectful of anyone who disagrees with it. i can respect the student and defend her right to express herself, but i cannot sit by and nod at a belief that i find outrageous and socially piosonous. i feel sorrow for the student, i express scorn for the parents.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:13 PM   #56
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oh, and going back and re-reading the original "Jews in Alabama" post, i do think it was intended to make an ironical point and not to be taken literally.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:23 PM   #57
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Irony is lost on so many...
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Old 04-06-2007, 04:53 PM   #58
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I didn't see it as irony, so I don't think anything was lost on me. Unless pretty much every post he makes regarding religion here is supposed to be irony

And there are definitely stereotypes constantly expressed in FYM about the South/Christians (whether fundamentalist/evangelical or not), to deny that is denying reality if you ask me.
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Old 04-06-2007, 05:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I didn't see it as irony, so I don't think anything was lost on me. Unless pretty much every post he makes regarding religion here is supposed to be irony

And there are definitely stereotypes constantly expressed in FYM about the South/Christians (whether fundamentalist/evangelical or not), to deny that is denying reality if you ask me.
Sometimes I think the things you write are so silly, that they do not deserve a response.
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Old 04-06-2007, 05:10 PM   #60
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I never said there were no Jewish children in Alabama.

Quote:
Originally posted by deep

keep in mind this is New York
not Alabama

there is a good chance that the are Jewish children around

Am I the only one that thinks there might be better chance there are more Jewish children in NY than Alabama?



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