Banning Fliers About Jesus Violated 4th Grader's Rights

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think it's quite a stretch to assume that her parents are out to "save" and/or insult Jewish people, and I'm sure there must be Jewish people in Alabama.

I agree that it is subjecting that girl to teasing etc. She can be involved in her church but to have her do that around school is only going to cause her problems. She'd be better off doing charity work or something like that and spreading her message in that way.

 

[yolland]

Michaela Bloodgood v. Liverpool Central School District (.pdf)

The flyers didn't say to 'ask me about Jesus', and actually the article MrsS posted is a little misleading about the family's history with the flyers--apparently the three occasions where they sought to distribute them involved three different flyers (the first of which did in fact get distributed; her teacher didn't find out about it until a week later, at which point she was told she couldn't do that again). Also, the examples of previously permitted flyers (camps, theater productions, etc.) cited in the article had all been distributed according to a school district policy where they were submitted for review to the Assistant Superintendent first, then distributed to all students by the teachers; this policy was explained to the girl's mother through a series of exchanges between her and the Superintendent's office, but she declined to submit them for distribution by the school. The policy forbids distribution of material "primarily of a proprietary nature" and refers to what may be allowed only in terms of "non-profit community based organizations". Apparently this was the first time (in that school district) a student had ever sought to randomly distribute flyers on their own, as well as the first time a student had sought to distribute religious material.

This is text of the first flyer she passed out:

JESUS SAVES!!

Hi! I am Michaela and would like to tell you about Jesus Christ and God His Father.

1. God sent his son (Jesus Christ) to come down on Earth and die on the cross for our sins.
2. God loves us so much he made a way for us to get to Heaven (which is why he sent his son here to die on a cross).
3. Here is a verse from the Bible for you to read: (In Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Jesus said, “Ye must be born again.”
4. I am going to ask you to please take the time to pray the simplest prayer (which can be like) Dear Lord Jesus, please forgive me, I am a sinner and don’t want to die and burn in a pit of fire for an eternity! Please come into my heart and by my personal Lord and Savior. In Jesus name I pray.

Amen.

The second flyer, which was confiscated by the teacher when she brought it to school, was a mass-produced children’s booklet called Cleo which "analogizes the recovery of a lost dog to Christian salvation, and had her church’s name stamped on the back." It was at that point that the mother began interacting with the Superintendent's office about the issue.

This is the text of the third flyer, that time the mother asked for permission first to let her daughter distribute it, which was declined as not in accord with the district policy:

Hi! My name is Michaela and I would like to tell you about my life and how Jesus Christ gave me a new one. I asked Him to come into my heart and save me from my sins. This is what he has done for me.

1. Jesus Christ helped my parents decide to get remarried in November and then I will get to see my dad every day.
2. He helped me memorize Bible verses and say them in front of my church.
3. He helped me learn piano and play psalms and hymns and sing with grace in my heart to the LORD.
4. God cared enough about me that He gave me the victory over thinking about something bad that happened to me.
5. Now that I am saved, God gave me a peace in my heart and the truth that I am going to heaven instead of the other place.

PRAISE THE LORD!

I don't really care about the decision one way or the other (though it seems like it's just begging to start an outbreak of parent-driven, printed tit-for-tat to be distributed using children as pawns), but it seems pretty lame to me that they filed a lawsuit over it; it's not like her daughter was punished by school officials at any point for their efforts. The school's previous policy on distributing printed materials seems perfectly sensible to me.

 

[anitram]

It's all disingenuous. No 9 year old would spend 3 years litigating this matter. The mother wants to evangelize through her child and apparently litigate through her as well. To what end?

 

[onebloodonelife]

4. I am going to ask you to please take the time to pray the simplest prayer (which can be like) Dear Lord Jesus, please forgive me, I am a sinner and don’t want to die and burn in a pit of fire for an eternity! Please come into my heart and by my personal Lord and Savior. In Jesus name I pray.

Okay, so apparently "she" wanted to tell other elementary students to pray for forgiveness, otherwise they'll die and burn in a pit of fire for eternity. That's a good enough reason for me to not allow the flyers in school.

And, the mother wouldn't follow the already set procedure for getting flyers distributed in the school, so she doesn't even have a case here.

 

[Irvine511]

Okay, so apparently "she" wanted to tell other elementary students to pray for forgiveness, otherwise they'll die and burn in a pit of fire for eternity. That's a good enough reason for me to not allow the flyers in school.

if i were the principal, i'd view this as offensive material and i'd ban it.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

if i were the principal, i'd view this as offensive material and i'd ban it.

I agree-but if I am interpreting what yolland posted correctly, that was confiscated and banned.

I can't believe the court decision approves of any of that original content, maybe what is stated in the article is all she is allowed to say.

 

[yolland]

The first flyer, which is what you guys seem to be referring to, was the one which the school didn't know about until a week after she'd distributed it (at which point she was told not to do that again). It was the second flyer ("Cleo") which was confiscated; then the third flyer--the one which the case technically focuses on--she apparently never even got around to bringing in, as her mother asked first if she could distribute it and they effectively said No, we told you already, you have to submit it to us for distribution (which of course it would never have been approved for, as that would be school endorsement of religion). The school's argument, as I understand it, is more one of this being an unprecedented way for printed materials to be distributed; previously they'd always seen that as their prerogative to regulate, and as such they were concerned that by granting her permission to distribute a flyer herself, they might be seen as effectively endorsing its content.

 

[U2Bama]

Here in Alabama (where we apparently don't have many Jewish people based on some "Free Your Mind" ignorance posted earlier in this thread), my 5th grade class got a talking-to by our principal because some of us were distributing "Stomp Out Lot Lizards" decals, referring to prostitutes that hang out around truck stops. I don't recall any Christian tracts being passed out in school, but all of the members of my 5th grade class were of some Christian denomination. There was a kid in my 4th grade class who was a Jehovah's Witness and didn't stand up for the Pledge of Allegience or participate in the Christmas Party (this was 1982/83) name-drawing gift swap.

~U2Alabama

 

[redhotswami]

I'm starting to get alarmed at the rise of appeals recently concerning students' NONEXISTENT "free speech" rights in k-12 school. This is school. Back in my day, the only flyers we could pass around were for elections and clubs. All printed materials had to be submitted for approval weeks before they were to be distributed.

I just think it is interesting that these kids are saying they have first amendment rights. What about the other amendments in the Bill of Rights that also don't apply to them? Are they going to start whining about 4th amendment rights when they sneak items prohibited in class in their backpacks? GOSH! They should just shut up and study already.

 

[u2fan628]

There is a guy at my job who leaves these flyers on the lunchroom table all the time.It bugs the shit out of me!Practice your religion at your home or in your church where people like you enjoy reading your flyers.

 

[maycocksean]

Well, I think we'd all be a bit disingenuous if we didn't admitt that personal distaste for (or approval of) the message being distributed was coloring our take on this situation.

The question has largely gone unanswered. . .would most of the posters here support a girl handing out flyers about "her two mommies." And if so, isn't the issue really about whether you or I feel the message being promoted is "worthwhile" or not? That many posters view this girl and her family's belief's with scorn is obvious. But I don't see how the fact that you think Christian belief is stupid should have any bearing on the issue.

Ultimately the issue should be about whether the school should have the right to limit what types of materials can be handed out by the students. I think that the school should have that right. I had a student in my freshman homeroom class six years ago who took it upon herself to write, edit, and print one issue of the class newspaper at home and distribute it herself at school. The entire "newspaper" was an attack on Christianity and the intellect of believers, clearly gleaned from a website somewhere. The principal of the school told her she had to stop, collected the distributed papers, and confiscated what hadn't been distributed. The student made a hue and cry about her free speech rights being violated and so on. Now granted the school I work at is a private Christian mission school so obviously we had an issue with the content, but beyond that, I think a school--including--a public school has the right to decide what students are allowed to distribute on campus.

And I do believe religious materials shouldn't be distributed by public schools.

Finally, a word on the the girl (and her family's) methodology for sharing their faith. I also find it be highly ineffective. I really do think we Christians can be a bit clueless sometimes about the best way to "get the message out." (You can read my journal entry here on Interference about my own experience going door to door with my church, and my discomfort with it). However, someone being teased or mocked because they believe something strongly does not reveal a problem with the character of the person being teased, but with those doing the teasing. There's almost the attitude among some here that she "deserves it" somehow, and I find that terribly sad. If it were one little atheist fourth grader in a Christian school (we actually have exactly this situation right now) I would never allow or approve of students mocking and teasing that student just because of their enthusiastic unbelief.

 

[BVS]

The question has largely gone unanswered. . .would most of the posters here support a girl handing out flyers about "her two mommies." And if so, isn't the issue really about whether you or I feel the message being promoted is "worthwhile" or not? That many posters view this girl and her family's belief's with scorn is obvious. But I don't see how the fact that you think Christian belief is stupid should have any bearing on the issue.

Well I think I was being very upfront about this issue, by questioning the overall "freedom of speech" of 4th graders. I honestly don't think elementary school students know enough or are mature enough to deal with any issues outside of the three "R"s.

 

[maycocksean]

Well I think I was being very upfront about this issue, by questioning the overall "freedom of speech" of 4th graders. I honestly don't think elementary school students know enough or are mature enough to deal with any issues outside of the three "R"s.

So you'd be against the "two mommies" flyer also?

The issue of at what age people have free speech rights is an interesting question, though. I wouldn't mind seeing that explored more.

But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.

 

[Dreadsox]

This is based on my experience, a rare ruling.....In most cases the school has some wiggle room about the distribution of literature.

For example, the School Council in my building is responsible for approving such a "mass produced" type of pamphlet or brochure. I almost wonder if there is a school rule that would come into play like this.

 

[redhotswami]

The question has largely gone unanswered. . .would most of the posters here support a girl handing out flyers about "her two mommies." And if so, isn't the issue really about whether you or I feel the message being promoted is "worthwhile" or not? That many posters view this girl and her family's belief's with scorn is obvious. But I don't see how the fact that you think Christian belief is stupid should have any bearing on the issue.

If a girl was handing out flyers about her two mommies my post would remain the same. In every thread that has been presented on "free" speech in k-12 schools, my stance has been consistent, that the "free" speech does not exist in these schools.

School is meant to be a learning environment that best provides support to meet students' needs. That does not include giving them the right to free speech. The Bill of Rights does not apply to children. Kids can't even vote! So I don't understand why they are trying to exercise first amendment rights at school. I certainly don't see kids pressing for any of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights to apply to them. So why this one??? When kids violate laws, they are tried in different courts. So why are they expecting the same rights in their schools that adults have?

Besides, the kid obviously knows nothing about advertisement. The flyers have way too much text. If she wanted to grab people's attention, graphics are key

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.

Well that's the FYM way You make a very good point-if one is going to object to the religious message and/or content, it's only fair to object to any sort of content that promotes any sort of similar message. I think the key question would be what the standard is for determining what is considered similar, and what would be comparable. I have no issue with a two mommies flyer (I believe kids need to learn that some kids have two mommies or two daddies, and that teaching that is not "promoting" homosexuality, it's merely the way life is-just like some have one parent, some have biracial families, etc)-and if you're going to allow religious content I don't see how you could disallow that. I would imagine there would be boundaries created by the school and the court for the two mommies/daddies flyer just as there would be for the religious ones as allowed by this decision.

 

[Dreadsox]

That does not include giving them the right to free speech. The Bill of Rights does not apply to children. Kids can't even vote! So I don't understand why they are trying to exercise first amendment rights at school.

This is a 100% incorrect statement about the application of the Bill of Rights in a school environment. Students do have the right to free speech. School systems in the eyes of the law are an extension of the government due to the fact that tax money pays for the school system. When a school system is acting to restrict the rights of a student in the realm of free speech in the eyes of the court it is an extension of the government. Now in the past the school system has been given quite a bit of wiggle room, and can operate with slightly more authority than the governement can operate in the general public. My point is that students 100% have the right to freedom of speech, however, schools can restrict in certain circumstances.

The fact that the student was advised by the parent to only hand out the pamphlet during lunch or recess time is a result of good coaching. Most of the teeth that administrators have in these instances comes from disruption of the primary focus the school education. Handing out the pamphlets during non instuctional time may very well be the reason the court ruled in the student's favor. The school must prove that this caused some type of disruption to the operation of the school or impacted the learning environment in some manner.

 

[Dreadsox]

Most fourth graders don't have a mind of their own...

How many fourth graders do you know or have you known? The ones I have had the pleasure of knowing are some of the most intelligent people I have EVER met.

 

[redhotswami]

This is a 100% incorrect statement about the application of the Bill of Rights in a school environment. Students do have the right to free speech. School systems in the eyes of the law are an extension of the government due to the fact that tax money pays for the school system. When a school system is acting to restrict the rights of a student in the realm of free speech in the eyes of the court it is an extension of the government. Now in the past the school system has been given quite a bit of wiggle room, and can operate with slightly more authority than the governement can operate in the general public. My point is that students 100% have the right to freedom of speech, however, schools can restrict in certain circumstances.

Is this across the board or is it statewide? because in my school, they were very strict about freedom of speech. We didn't have it. We couldn't protest on schoolgrounds, and we couldn't wear certain clothes. And I went to a public school. Students do not have 100% freedom of speech if it is restricted by the schools.

 

[Irvine511]

But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.

just to be clear, i was trying to make the point that -- while, yes, when reading the full text of those fliers i find them easy to mock, and i don't see why i need to tread lightly when people talk to me about lakes of fire -- this girl's parents should at least have some sort of basic self-awareness to predict that they are setting their daughter up for mockery and ridicule.

as for the "two mommies" issue -- i brought that up as a counterpoint to this flier. surely her parents, if they are so concerned about lakes of fire, would find such material as offensive as i, or others, might have found the original fliers? i'm not saying whether or not i think it's appropriate to distribute such fliers, and if/when i adopt my very own Maddox and Zahara, i'm sure as hell not going to send them to school with fliers that are going to amplify whatever difference they might have with their classmates. such evangelicalism is evidence of narcissism on the part of the parents.



also, am i the only one baffled by U2Bama's post? can you explain a bit further? i usually enjoy your posts (despite the easy shots at all of FYM), i'm just not sure what you're trying to say with this one.

 

[Dreadsox]

Is this across the board or is it statewide? because in my school, they were very strict about freedom of speech. We didn't have it. We couldn't protest on schoolgrounds, and we couldn't wear certain clothes. And I went to a public school. Students do not have 100% freedom of speech if it is restricted by the schools.

Depends on when the protest occured. Clothing is an item that is also allowed to be restricted. I am (fingers crossed) soon to be a principal of a school.

Your statement was the Bill of Rights does not apply to children. That is incorrect. As I said, schools have the ability to restrict the right however, the Right exists, is still there, and is not allowed to be completly stomped out.

Tinker v des. Moines 1969
Papish v Bd, of Curators 1973
Bethel School Dist. v. Fraser 1986
Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier 1988


These are all landmaek cases that define the rights of students and Freedom of Speech.

Tinker was specifically about wearing black armbands to school to protest the vietman war. The students won the right to wear the bands and the school lost. The school must prove that there is a disruption to the educational process by the article of clothing and they could not do so with the armband.

Now at the high school, if someone is wearing something quite revelealing, this could be argued that it disrupts the classroom learning environment.

 

[BVS]

So you'd be against the "two mommies" flyer also?

The issue of at what age people have free speech rights is an interesting question, though. I wouldn't mind seeing that explored more.

But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful.

Yes I would.

 

[redhotswami]

Your statement was the Bill of Rights does not apply to children. That is incorrect. As I said, schools have the ability to restrict the right however, the Right exists, is still there, and is not allowed to be completly stomped out.

Congrats on becoming a principal!

You're right, I was perhaps too absolute in my post. But I find it hard to disagree with you when I feel like I am saying the same thing more or less. What I'm saying is that the rights are not 100% the same as they are for adults in these schools, simply because schools can impose restrictions on them. People are already told of school policies (or at least given a copy of them) when they enroll their children in the school. The schools I went to reprimanded students for using swear words (free speech?) as much as they reprimanded students for burning their bras. Ultimately, the school gets to decide which "free speech exercises" disrupt the learning environment, which means that the students who believe they are fully 100% entitled to the same rights on school grounds that their parents have are dellusional.

I'm saying their rights during school hours on school grounds are very different than their rights outside, because the school, as it should, imposes these restrictions on all students.

 

[U2Bama]

also, am i the only one baffled by U2Bama's post? can you explain a bit further? i usually enjoy your posts (despite the easy shots at all of FYM), i'm just not sure what you're trying to say with this one.

Are you talking about the lot lizard decal incident? I was just throwing in another case, where my fifth grade class got scolded for passing out "Stomp Out Lot Lizards" decals at school; a different, but parallel situation to the unauthorized distribution of religious tracts by this girl in Rochester or Syracuse or wherever. Now the Gideons did distribute pocket Bibles (Psalms/NT) to students in the lobby one day after school, to students who wanted them.

Regarding the "easy shots at all of FYM," that was just a tip of the hat to what I occasionally see in here, as if we have no Jewish people in Alabama. Perhaps it's good for people to hold ignorant, closed-minded views like that so that if they do ever visit this region, they will be pleasantly surprised. As I also noted, all of the students in my fifth grade class were of some Christian denomination, but we only had 22 students. What's strange about the basis for this "no Jews in Alabama" myth is that we have 4 synagogues in Birmingham! What's up with that? Are they synagogues with no congregants???

It's kind of like how Maycocksean said "But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful." Evangelicals, citizens of Southern states, etc. are all easy and fun targets; I participate in it myself sometimes. But it is highly tolerated in a venue such as this while "easy shots" at other groups are looked down upon. I'm not offended by it, just making observations of it.

~U2Alabama

 

[Irvine511]

Are you talking about the lot lizard decal incident? I was just throwing in another case, where my fifth grade class got scolded for passing out "Stomp Out Lot Lizards" decals at school; a different, but parallel situation to the unauthorized distribution of religious tracts by this girl in Rochester or Syracuse or wherever. Now the Gideons did distribute pocket Bibles (Psalms/NT) to students in the lobby one day after school, to students who wanted them.

thanks for explaining.


[q]Regarding the "easy shots at all of FYM," that was just a tip of the hat to what I occasionally see in here, as if we have no Jewish people in Alabama. Perhaps it's good for people to hold ignorant, closed-minded views like that so that if they do ever visit this region, they will be pleasantly surprised. As I also noted, all of the students in my fifth grade class were of some Christian denomination, but we only had 22 students. What's strange about the basis for this "no Jews in Alabama" myth is that we have 4 synagogues in Birmingham! What's up with that? Are they synagogues with no congregants???[/q]

well, i do think it's true that, statistically, there aren't nearly as many Jews in the south as there are in, say, Westchester County (and it is true that my boyfriend had never met a Jewish person until he moved to DC), but you're absolutely right, there are Jews in the south.

we did all see "Driving Miss Daisy," didn't we?


[q]It's kind of like how Maycocksean said "But taking easy shots at Christian fundamentalists and their strange ways, while fun for some, isn't particularly insightful." Evangelicals, citizens of Southern states, etc. are all easy and fun targets; I participate in it myself sometimes. But it is highly tolerated in a venue such as this while "easy shots" at other groups are looked down upon. I'm not offended by it, just making observations of it.[/q]

i'm not so sure i agree that it's "tolerated" in FYM as opposed to other groups, though you are dealing with the simple fact that white evangelical southerns do not have a history of oppression in the same way that other groups (women, Jews, gays, blacks) do, so i think that's where a stronger resistance to stereotyping of said traditionally marginalized groups comes from. we're more preconditioned to be sensitive to sterotyping of the traditionally marginalized. but i do agree, in essence -- a stereotype is a stereotype, a cheap shot is a cheap shot.

however, i would argue that the political positioning of many evangelicals and their stated political agenda (as determined by those in leadership positions, who of course proclaim to speak for all but we know they do not speak for all) as well as a fundamentalist outlook on things such as, say, Biblical inerrancy or the whole "Jesus is the only way," does, to my mind, invite dialogue and objections -- some of which might be mocking -- in the same way that any political platform invites criticism. and i think it's perfectly legitimate for some groups to feel threatened by this clear political agenda when it seeks either your conversion or destruction, should your life somehow be lived in opposition to a specific set of "rules."

thus, i think the fliers this poor little girl was handing out were deserving of ridicule. i see no reason to be respectful of a belief that is, at it's core, disrespectful of anyone who disagrees with it. i can respect the student and defend her right to express herself, but i cannot sit by and nod at a belief that i find outrageous and socially piosonous. i feel sorrow for the student, i express scorn for the parents.

 

[Irvine511]

oh, and going back and re-reading the original "Jews in Alabama" post, i do think it was intended to make an ironical point and not to be taken literally.

 

[BVS]

Irony is lost on so many...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I didn't see it as irony, so I don't think anything was lost on me. Unless pretty much every post he makes regarding religion here is supposed to be irony

And there are definitely stereotypes constantly expressed in FYM about the South/Christians (whether fundamentalist/evangelical or not), to deny that is denying reality if you ask me.

 

[deep]

I didn't see it as irony, so I don't think anything was lost on me. Unless pretty much every post he makes regarding religion here is supposed to be irony

And there are definitely stereotypes constantly expressed in FYM about the South/Christians (whether fundamentalist/evangelical or not), to deny that is denying reality if you ask me.

Sometimes I think the things you write are so silly, that they do not deserve a response.

 

[deep]

I never said there were no Jewish children in Alabama.

keep in mind this is New York
not Alabama

there is a good chance that the are Jewish children around

Am I the only one that thinks there might be better chance there are more Jewish children in NY than Alabama?