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Old 04-03-2007, 02:31 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Justin24


What would you say if it were a muslim, jew, budhhist. Since they are the minority religions would you stop them from doing this also?

I though everyone had a right to free speech?
Why would it differ if it were a minority religion?

The fact is that 4th graders have limits to their free speech on public school grounds, as does everyone on public school grounds.

But if everyone has free speech then you're opening the doors to all kinds of political issues on elementary school campuses. Do you want them passing out pro-choice, gay marriage, or KKK fliers?
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:33 PM   #17
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I agree that it's pretty clear that the parents were behind it, but was it entirely the ideas of the other kids who passed out the fliers promoting a YMCA basketball camp, a Syracuse Children's Theater promotion and Camp Fire USA's summer camps? Does the school think that is some sort of implied endorsement on its' part of all of those, or is it the fact that it involves religion that makes them "nervous"? Doesn't the C in YMCA stand for Christian, if you wanted to take it to that extreme?

If Christianity related fliers are allowed by this ruling, obviously any and all other religions would have to be allowed too.
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

this part seemed reasonable to me:

[q]Bloodgood's requests to school officials said that her daughter, now a sixth-grader, would hand them out only during "non-instructional time," such as on the bus, before school, lunch, recess and after school.[/q]
Do you really want to open up full freedom of speech on elementary school busses? Do you want the neighbor kid passing out neo-nazi fliers when there's only one bus driver to break the fights up?
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:40 PM   #19
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Ah, now I understand what that paragraph meant

I think there is a difference whether you just promote a summer camp or a YMCA basketball camp (I know YMCA is a Catholic organisation, but as far as I'm aware of it is open to everyone and doesn't pursue its agenda that strongly) or try to convince other children about devoting a large part of their life to something. That should be left to the parents to decide which denomination, or even no denomination, fits to their children, whereas a little promotion for a theater or a summer camp is just a good way to make children and parents aware of spare time programs.

Of course, if the kid passed out the flyers beside the school that's no grounds for the school to get involved.
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why would it differ if it were a minority religion?

The fact is that 4th graders have limits to their free speech on public school grounds, as does everyone on public school grounds.

But if everyone has free speech then you're opening the doors to all kinds of political issues on elementary school campuses. Do you want them passing out pro-choice, gay marriage, or KKK fliers?
The reason I bring this up, is race or religion seems to be a hot topic amongst us FYMers.
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:42 PM   #21
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Well considering the hate speech that I have heard takes place on at recess and on buses..how much is that controlled and monitored by teachers, drivers? It doesn't have to be in print to be an issue, obviously. Sometimes it seems as if kids have complete and total freedom of speech, if you go by some of the news stories and personal anecdotes that you hear. And what about what kids do on the internet on school property?
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


The reason I bring this up, is race or religion seems to be a hot topic amongst us FYMers.
Yeah it's a hot topic, but I haven't seen anyone support freedom of speech of minorities over anyone. In fact I usually see the opposite in here.
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Well considering the hate speech that I have heard takes place on at recess and on buses..how much is that controlled and monitored by teachers, drivers? It doesn't have to be in print to be an issue, obviously. Sometimes it seems as if kids have complete and total freedom of speech, if you go by some of the news stories and personal anecdotes that you hear. And what about what kids do on the internet on school property?
Well obviously not all speech can be monitored, especially that over internet.

But just as my brother got in trouble for calling a girl a booger head in elementary school, I would sure hope the same would go for a racial slur.

But I think there is something more powerful about the written word than just the conversational word on the playground. When passing out fliers there is an agenda taking place, and the word can travel further.
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Do you really want to open up full freedom of speech on elementary school busses? Do you want the neighbor kid passing out neo-nazi fliers when there's only one bus driver to break the fights up?


we have freedom of speech to the degree that it is deemed appropriate by school officials. we have to look at each instance on it's own merits. i don't see how this is at all disruptive or offensive to what goes on during school to warrent censorship.

if she had said, "let me tell you about how the redemptive power of Christ can save you from the lake of fire that awaits all those who practice the homosexual lifestyle," then, yes, that would be disruptive and offensive and would probably warrent censorship, as would similarly hateful neo-nazi/KKK fliers.

personally, i think this is frightfully embarassing for the little girl, and i'm sorry her parents think this is a good idea or somehow an effective method of evangelizing. it just furthers stereotypes and probably makes her feel isolated from her classmates.
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




we have freedom of speech to the degree that it is deemed appropriate by school officials. we have to look at each instance on it's own merits. i don't see how this is at all disruptive or offensive to what goes on during school to warrent censorship.

if she had said, "let me tell you about how the redemptive power of Christ can save you from the lake of fire that awaits all those who practice the homosexual lifestyle," then, yes, that would be disruptive and offensive and would probably warrent censorship, as would similarly hateful neo-nazi/KKK fliers.

personally, i think this is frightfully embarassing for the little girl, and i'm sorry her parents think this is a good idea or somehow an effective method of evangelizing. it just furthers stereotypes and probably makes her feel isolated from her classmates.
I understand this. But where does the line of this limited freedom of speech get drawn? Would she have been able to pass out fliers to Fred Phelp's church if it didn't have the hateful "lake of fire homosexual" talk?
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:07 PM   #26
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Originally posted by LJT


Bit young for a fourth grader to have already required 'a new life'.


No kidding. I thought that first life was supposed to be good for at least 20-25 years. Hell, I expect my kitchen stove to last longer than that. I think God might need to tweak his manufacturing process a bit.
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I understand this. But where does the line of this limited freedom of speech get drawn? Would she have been able to pass out fliers to Fred Phelp's church if it didn't have the hateful "lake of fire homosexual" talk?


my guess is that it's up to each individual school to determine what is and what isn't offensive/disruptive -- in my opinion, just the mention of Fred Phelps should be enough to ban the flier, but i'm not a principal. and this is also where parents can come in.

i still think it's really, really weird that she's passing out fliers asking people to ask her about Jesus. if anything, i think the disruption would come not from the fliers, but from the taunting and teasing and the, "what planet are you from," that such activity would probably have engendered in my elementary school.
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
she's passing out fliers asking people to ask her about Jesus
keep in mind this is New York
not Alabama

there is a good chance that the are Jewish children around


this child just wants to share her story
Jewish children deserve an opportunity to be saved

Heaven knows their parents won't give them this opportunity.
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


keep in mind this is New York
not Alabama

there is a good chance that the are Jewish children around


this child just wants to share her story
Jewish children deserve an opportunity to be saved

Heaven knows their parents won't give them this opportunity.




now that's interesting -- does asking people to ask you about being saved by Jesus constitute an affront on other's religions?
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i still think it's really, really weird that she's passing out fliers asking people to ask her about Jesus.
Yeah, it's very wierd, what is she going to do when asked the tough questions? I mean we have folks in here that claim they've been Christians all there life or are in missionary school and they don't even know the original commandment.

Honestly I just don't think she's mature enough to really know what she's asking people to do, sounds to me like her parents are using her as a pawn in order to get religion in public schools.
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