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Old 10-15-2002, 08:24 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Um ok pt. taken Bethany.
The proximity looked alot closer on a world map.

"Few ppl"..I remember more than a few..it look like a rock concert


i live in jakarta, and i've never heard any of it.
pls don't feel like we hav no sympathy.
dont u know it's really hard enough 4 us as an indonesian ppl?
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Old 10-15-2002, 09:40 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by candice star



i live in jakarta, and i've never heard any of it.
pls don't feel like we hav no sympathy.
dont u know it's really hard enough 4 us as an indonesian ppl?
Thank you Candice Star.

They played it over and over in the days following 9-11 here on television.
Many ppl were shocked.
Bono even mentioned these ppl in Jakarta celebrating, how he thought it was sad, giving the USA a bad name ect on The White House steps..on CSPAN..
I know prolly the majority of the citizens of Jakarta do not hate the USA , I hope not..didnt mean to offend you..

-diamond-
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Old 10-15-2002, 10:33 PM   #48
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Right.

What I think MAP was referring to was that after last year, a debate opened whereby people were discussing whether or not America had in some way brought upon itself terrorism with its foreign policy and attitude to other peoples and cultures. He was then trying to say that perhaps the same people who believed this, would also be of the belief that the Australians who died had brought it upon themselves, presumably because of Australia's foreign policy and attitude to other peoples and cultures.

This is of course a ridiculous statement with hardly any foundation and is worthy of the contempt it has been shown thus far.

However, the actual bombing does call into question just what it is these people want. It would appear they would like to kill all non-Islamic people, which is obviously not the most intelligent thing to want to achieve. There also appears to be some twisted logic at play here... if the terrorists want large numbers of sympathisers, the last thing they should be doing is bombing tourists in the Far East. The logical conclusion to this is that the tourists will stay away, the hoteliers will pull out, foreign industry will dry up and the countries will have to fend for themselves. Given that nearly every country in the world relies on tourism and foreign investment as a large part of their trade, it would prove catastrophic for the region and the people who live there will not be happy about that. Bali itself estimates to lose $3billion alone this year because of this, enough to wipe out the country's economy.

What we obviously see here is the real crux behind this brand of terrorism. It has been dressed up as a war against American economy but that's rubbish really. It is down to the basic prejudice that anyone who is not Islamic must die. And anyone who has any interest in that religion will know that at no time are its followers told to maim or destroy non-believers or followers of a different faith. Quite the opposite, in fact.

In summary, I think we have probably found that "globalisation" or the whole world as "one big village" has reached its peak. Over the next decades or so it will regress to become a divided world once more. Whether or not there will actually be many humans left alive to experience this is another matter entirely.

That said, it is unlikely. If we were going to have a nuclear war, we'd have had one by now. What is more likely is that life will get more difficult for everyone concerned. And as always happens in things like this, it will take one particular incident to make people stop. History tells us this will be the case.
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Old 10-15-2002, 11:34 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by bullet the blue sky
Right.

There also appears to be some twisted logic at play here...
ha!
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:52 AM   #50
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It's just a bloody big mess...

I don't think you guys are understanding one another here...but then neither do I, so I'll wade on.
My friend's family are physically OK. Their restuarant was fairly close to the bomb and was damaged,. She is very saddened. She has been home to Bali twice in the 10 years I have known her and each trip home she has come back here and told a sadder story about how things are up there.

I suppose you guys have heard this before, but I feel like sharing it now
from the 2001/2002 Rolling Stone yearbook

RS:What was the best place you visited in 2001?

Bono:I went to Bali for a drink. I really did....the place is filled with temples , it just smells different to anywhere else in the world. There's a tropical scent that is rich and beautiful. .....At the end of the week I realised they had been teaching me. They teach you how to live and see it as a kind of religious practice.They give thanks for everything....

I know so many people who have been to Bali. It truly has been a paradise on earth, the landscape, the art, the people, the spirit , the love. My buddy and I had a vow, we'd go there before we were 40. But about 5 years before that happened the situation beacme too sad and scary up there, I just couldn't go,even if I did have the spare $$$ and even though my Balinese friend would love us to met her daddy.
Another of my Balinese friends is due to have her second child soon, she went home for a visit recently. I was surprised to when her husband didn't go. he is a Dutch/aussie guy and even though he is married to a local he didn't feel safe to go. it's a heavy heavy situation

Australia's part in it all? I find the history and the connections and the events so confusing..I can offer no comment. We are all human, we are in this together., I have friends and family in the military, I have friends and family in the peace movement...i love them all. It's not enough.
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Old 10-16-2002, 01:28 AM   #51
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Thankyou Bullet. The clarification was appreciated.

To be honest, America stunned me. That attack was well, I wont go into it all again, we all know what was happening. It made little sense to me back then with this twisted logic that America was targeted as an example of some cold hate toward western ideals. America's involvement in certain aspects of middle eastern affairs kept cropping up, and it made me wonder if that was somehow justification of that belief that America did a Far Side comic strip impro and painted a large bullseye on its chest and said we have a bumer of a birthmark, come get us. I didn't buy it then, and I'm sure as hell not buying that now. We keep talking about this war on terror. But the only people who seem to be dying here are innocent westerners by some disgruntled extremists who are picking targets to make some kind of point in this twisted logic you mention.

Sorry to hear about those you all know who have been directly affected.
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Old 10-16-2002, 01:44 AM   #52
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally posted by bullet the blue sky
What is more likely is that life will get more difficult for everyone concerned. And as always happens in things like this, it will take one particular incident to make people stop. History tells us this will be the case.
So you wrote the editorial today?

Good points though...
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Old 10-16-2002, 02:47 AM   #53
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Basically, when Americans were greiving after 9/11 a lot of not so helpfull people took that opportunity to remind us of America's (admittedly very real) sins and suggested it was a bit of karmic retribution or at least an eye for an eye. We got comments like,
"C'mon, only 2,000 people died" and "9/11 is the most overrated event ever" and lots of other vicious comments of that sort.
I recall a Wireling tying 9/11 to our ancestors treatment of the indigenous population of North America.

What these insensitive clods don't realize is that the people who died on 9/11 were innocents. Like the people in Bali.
When an innocent is murdered the cruelest thing to say is,
"yeah, but..." There are no "yeah buts." Even if the dead person is an American. Or an Australian. Or an Iraqi.

I'm not a fan of American foreign policy. I never have been. I'm not a fan of Reagan, or Bush or Clinton or Shrub. I have grave qualms about a war with Iraq. Even though I do think Saddam is a brutal thug and deserves whatever he gets I'm afraid he'll disappear in the night like Bin Laden and meanwhile thousands of innocents on both sides will die for naught. But if an Islamic terrorist kills me tomorrow there are going to be a lot of folks, even people on this message board, who will say, "yeah, but...he was an American and America did such and such so he's fair game." And I think that's ugly. Really ugly.

But I've sullied this thread enough. What happened in Bali is appalling. I just listened to an interview with a survivor a few minutes ago describing young girls bursting into flames. I don't really have anything else to say. Except I apologize for the sarcasm. It was inappropriate.

MAP
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Old 10-16-2002, 03:22 AM   #54
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Well, to explain 'why' this may have happened...

From what I've read, I *think* this is the way it goes...

Indonesia is a really complicated place, there has always been a very blurred line between government, military and extremists.
The current government has done more then any other to crack down on corruption in the military, military power in the country (they basicaly run the place) and the extremists. The US and Australia haven't been too pleased with the job they've been doing, as in they haven't done enough. Since 9/11 the Indonesian governtment has been the hardest to work with in regards to cracking down on terrorism in SE Asia. Up until last weekend, they basically denied having a problem, and some of the leaders even had subtle government support, or at least protection. This, obviously, has had the US and Australia pissed off.

It's been hard though for the US and Australia to push though, because of the standing the military have, and the fact that Indonesia is the largest Muslim country on earth (200million people, 90% Muslim), it is feared that if the Indonesian government pushes too far, there will be some kind of Extremist uprising, or the government will lose what little control they have over the military.

The group that is most likely responsible for these bombings, Jemaah Islamiyah, have as their main goal, the creation of a Islamic 'super state' made up of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philipinnes.

Bali is one of thousands of islands that make up Indonesia, it is not at all Muslim, but pretty much completely Hindu.

By bombing the heart of Bali, they kill the maximum amount of Westerners, and if anyone else, it's Balinese Hindu's who they don't care about. This bombing then angers the US and Australia, who start pushing the Indonesian government to crackdown. It also will pretty much kill off tourism in the region, leading to massive economic problems. All aimed at destabilising the government. They hope this will lead to the uprising, and puts them a step closer to this Islamic super state.

This is also why you shouldn't expect alot of loud angry GW type actions from the Australian government now. Whatever is done now, it's like walking on glass. I think everyone will want this sorted, and fast, believe me, I wish we could just send the SAS off to nail these fuckers, but Indonesia is just waiting for a spark, and I don't think anyone, particularly the US, want to have to deal with that.
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Old 10-16-2002, 04:09 AM   #55
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Right you are Tyler. I always maintain that Australia does a helluva job day in day out avoiding catalysmic military confrontation with Indonesia's more extreme elements, just imagine if the USA had Indonesia and not Canada right above it...
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Old 10-16-2002, 10:38 AM   #56
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I am not even going to try to analyse political and religious situations that I have such an inadequate understanding of.

All I wanted to say right now is that I don't understand. I don't understand what some radical extremist group thought could be achieved for them by doing this. These people do not have the same value of human life that we do. I guess that's the root of terrorism - attacking unexpectedly and unpredictably and usually killing innocent people wo have NOTHING to do with whatever it is they have a problem with.

My thoughts are with the victims - those who made it through and those who did not survive, and their families and friends.

We can only pray that somehow there will be a way to stop these needless acts of terrorism. And we need to find it soon.
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Old 10-16-2002, 02:12 PM   #57
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tyler, I was going to do a run-through of the complexity of the situation, but I think you summed it up well.

I found it very interesting that Laksar Jihad chose yesterday to disband. Apparently when they were slaughtering thousands of innocent Indonesians in the last two years, it wasn't horrific enough for the world to take note. Very very sad that things have come to this.
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Old 10-16-2002, 11:45 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Thank you Candice Star.

They played it over and over in the days following 9-11 here on television.
Many ppl were shocked.
Bono even mentioned these ppl in Jakarta celebrating, how he thought it was sad, giving the USA a bad name ect on The White House steps..on CSPAN..
I know prolly the majority of the citizens of Jakarta do not hate the USA , I hope not..didnt mean to offend you..

-diamond-
so, i guess U2 or bono will never come to Jakarta.
i'll not see any U2 concerts, ever
for me, these situations are not bringing any advantages for us, indonesians so why do we have to celebrate. we know that the world will blame those extremist groups in Indonesia, then we will have more complex crisis
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Old 10-19-2002, 09:33 AM   #59
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this fell down the list pretty quickly
i now know 4 people who know the dead.
this just gets worse by the minute.
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Old 10-19-2002, 09:16 PM   #60
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Thought you all might be interested to read the account of what happened that night by someone who was outside the club.

It's quite disturbing, so only read if you think you can...

Febey: I thought I'd killed my mates
By DAMIAN BARRETT
20oct02
Herald Sun newspaper, Melbourne

STEVEN FEBEY survived the Bali bombings but he does not know how, or why his life was spared. The recently retired Melbourne footballer, 33, tells of the mayhem during and after the attack and how his outlook on life has changed forever.

THAT night, we had walked about two kilometres from our hotel to where it all happened. We had just turned the corner, from Poppies Lane into Legian Rd, and I can still see it, still feel it.
There were a lot of people. A sea of faces. It was really hot and there was a real buzz. Twenty seconds later, there was no one there and that is what I am wrestling with at the moment.

We'd got to the front of Paddy's Bar, the four of us. Me, my best mate Mark Andrews - we grew up together and he was my best man - Steven Armstrong and David Robbins. And that was when the first bomb went off. That blew me up across the road and I ended up against a building, but I kept my feet.

My first thought was fireworks or something. But then as I looked at that building, the glass was imploding. It wasn't falling out. Once I saw falling glass, I made a conscious effort to get out of the way and I jumped back on to the middle of the road. I remember I was huddled and I thought Mark was still beside me, and I believe he was, but then as the second blast went off, it knocked me up against a brick wall near a telegraph pole.

There was a row of scooters on the road and it felt like I flew over them. I didn't touch the ground, probably went 10 to 15 metres. The rush of the blast, I felt it go through my body. I didn't feel the heat as such but I could feel the wind. I was up against the brick wall outside Paddy's.

At that stage, the fire hadn't taken hold at Paddy's. Certainly I don't remember seeing fire there at that stage, anyway. I hunched down next to the wall and then waited. I was thinking: "Well, when does the next one come?"

My first clear thought was for my best mate, Mark, who had been standing beside me. I was yelling out his nickname: "Ronny, Ronny, Ronny". Then I panicked, a state of shock. I was trembling, shaking. Amongst all that, I still somehow had a clear focus that I would find him.

People were just screaming everywhere. The first person I saw was a guy who looked up at me and said, "Can you help me?" By that time there were two or three of us around, there were not many people standing in the vicinity of the blast. I looked at his face and he had his hand up and I gazed down further and his legs were just mashed. There was just nothing there.

I couldn't deal with it. Initially, I probably didn't believe what I saw. But then, fortunately, someone beside me knelt down with him and comforted him and put a shirt over his legs. I don't think anyone could have done anything for him. From what I saw, he wasn't going to survive. I have no idea what happened to him. Once I saw he was being comforted, I started to walk closer to where the blast was.

There were cars just mangled. All I remember is looking down and seeing bodies under the cars. In my own mind, I didn't believe they were dead, didn't want to believe they were dead.

The whole time I was looking for Mark, but hoping I wouldn't find him. I thought if I found him there, he was going to be like the others. There were bits of corrugated iron and I moved bits of them but I was very tentative about doing so, because I didn't want to uncover him.

I got to the front of the Sari and the fire had really taken hold. Really, really intense. It was probably five minutes after the second blast. Without seeing anyone directly, you could see people moving about the place. There was a girl screaming. I don't know if she was injured, or what, but she was huddling over someone, whether it was her boyfriend, her husband, I'm not sure.

Screams of "Help us" and "Help me". She would have been about halfway in the Sari and I was standing about where I thought the blast was and you could not take one step further forward. The heat was just so intense.

You were stuck in two minds. All I wanted to do was find Mark and I am not a courageous person, or a hero, but you wanted to help. But you just couldn't. The heat was so strong.

Then I made the decision to move on. I walked back down the other side of the road, through the rubble, still trying to find Mark and the other two. We were all together just five minutes before and now I had no idea where they were.

I made my way back to where I was when it all happened and at that stage the fire engines were coming. I had convinced myself I was the only one of the four who had survived. I had to be. I couldn't find them.

There were bodies everywhere. I tried not to look at their faces - that was the thing I tried not to do. I really don't want to put a figure on how many I saw.

Every time I speak about this or think about it, I recall something new. One incident I remember was seeing a Sandringham player, Jakey Ryan. He was standing there with nothing on. All his clothes had been ripped off him in the mayhem of trying to get out. To me, he looked all right.

He looked at me and he said, "Febes". He ended up having a large gash in his stomach. It was very serious but at the time he was going on adrenaline.

I also remember thinking that a big lump of a lad who I helped down the road was Steven King, from Geelong. It wasn't but for some reason at the time, I thought it was.

I ran back to the hotel. By now, a lot of people were coming the other way, wanting to see what was going on. I felt like saying to them, "What are you doing?" But there were a lot of people coming to help.

There were people jumping over the side of buildings, getting away from the Sari, I presume, into Poppies Lane. There were just hundreds of people around and by this stage I am starting to run. Just tearing down there.

One image which sticks, and one that is disturbing, is the looting.

I ran all the way back to the Hard Rock, maybe two kilometres away. I was thinking that if the other guys were thinking the way I was, they would go back to the hotel.

It was the quickest two kilometres I have ever run and I have since told the coach that.

There were a lot of people back there and the wounded were rolling in. I got to the manager of the hotel - I had been speaking to him all week because I'd organised our club functions.

They had arranged a bit of a casualty ward and that is where I first saw Jason McCartney and Mick Martyn. Mick was fine but Jason was a bit crook. I just looked at Jason and he said, "Febes".

I don't know what I said to him because at that stage I still hadn't found the other blokes. To me, he looked OK. I could see he had burned hands but he was covered in dust and that was probably hiding his other burns.

I just propped at reception. I had my mobile with me and started making phone calls to hospitals, to the consulate and also trying to get hold of Lou (wife Louise), who was in Echuca. I got to her in a roundabout fashion: rang her mother, her mother rang Todd Viney, where she was staying. I spoke to Lou a couple of times, I spoke to my brother Matthew and Todd had rung Danny Corcoran, the Melbourne footy manager.

Every time they rang me back, I was in hysterics saying, "Look, I've lost them. I've brought these guys to Bali and I've killed them".

I made a phone call to Schwarta (David Schwarz). The rest of the Melbourne boys were leaving Bali at 12.50 and I must have got him just before they boarded, close to two hours after it happened.

I told Schwarta the situation and that created a bit of panic in the players. In hindsight I wish I hadn't made that call. I put a bit of pressure on those guys but I was by myself and I had no one to help me. Schwarta rang back and I think he had spoken to Neale (Daniher, the coach) or Danny and he just said, "Get the boys home".

I didn't want to go back to my room because I knew I would see all of Mark's gear, but I had to. A change of clothes, charged the phone battery and then out to reception as quickly as possible. Without knowing it, at 2 or 3 in the morning, Mark had rung the room and reception had put it through, even though I wanted all my calls downstairs.

About 4am, five hours after the blast, I had big concerns that they weren't coming back.

I talked to a friend of a friend of Schwarta's, a girl who lives there or works there, and she was really helpful in talking to doctors and the embassy and locating people.

They couldn't give you surnames at the hospitals but I heard that a David and a Steven had just checked out. They had wounds but were OK.

I got that message about 5.30-6. Prior to that call, I had spoken to Steven Armstrong's family and people who looked after him in Melbourne. I said to them, "Look, I think I've lost them".

I had spoken to the coach and I had spoken to Danny. My brother was ringing from Ireland; he was with the International Rules team. He was next to David Neitz and Garry Lyon. I spoke to those two. It's quite strange when I look back now that, in that time after the bombs, I spoke to my last three captains.

They were good. There wasn't a lot they could do, but they just said to be strong and hang in there.

Got another phone call from another lady who said Mark was alive in a hospital. That is all I heard and I believed that was him. Mark's mother rang me, and I found out through her, seven hours later, that he was OK. By that time it was the greatest relief. Then the other two boys walked in, arm in arm. I just ran to them and gave them the biggest hug. I spoke to Mark about 6.30-7 in the morning and by that time the sun was coming up.

We were dead tired. The boys went to their room and I went to mine. No way could I sleep. Looked at the telly, then heard a noise in the corridor and by that stage I was paranoid beyond belief and chain-locked the door.

Then I rang the boys and told them I was pretty lonely down here, and said, "Do you mind if I come up?"

I grabbed a few things, went up to their room. I said, "Which bed am I jumping in?" It was quite funny. They said, "You can have that one, because we're in this one."

It was funny, good to have a laugh. But they were as scared as I was.

Fate was clearly on our side. Instead of driving to the clubs, which we had done every other night, we walked. We actually weren't even going to go out and the only reason we did was because Steven was going to meet Jason McCartney. We had decided to all go together.

Steven had come down to our room and we just decided to watch the end of the movie, which is now my favourite movie of all time. We said, "We'll just watch the last few minutes". The last few minutes went for 10 minutes. It was Miss Congeniality with Sandra Bullock. That was the reason we were late and the reason we walked was because when we got down there, it was such a good night.

Instead of getting there in five minutes, it took us 20. We were going straight to the Sari. That was fate.

We got the hotel doctor to patch us up and then we were out of there; packed up all my clothes, and Mark's. Lou had organised flights out for that night. I had a big wad of money left from our fund. It was probably 200 bucks, but a big wad in their money, and I planned to use it in whatever means to get us out.

I organised a van and a driver for the afternoon and found a hospital to see if Mark was there. Just chaos, people and trolleys everywhere.

Saw a Mark Andrews on the board and went to the room. The guy in there happened to be Mark Andre. Back to the van and off to another hospital a kilometre away. I found Mark but couldn't give him a hug because he was lying down in bandages. He had several glass wounds down his body, his arm and his hand. We traded stories. I said to the doctor, "I'm taking him, just get him as right as you can".

Spoke on the phone again to Jill, the friend of a friend of Schwarta's. She mentioned something about Jakey Ryan being in a pretty serious condition and needing an operation. She said she didn't know what hospital he was in but for some reason I knew he was in a room 40. Mark was in room 39. I looked next door and there was Jake. The last time I had seen him he was standing naked after the bombs.

Loaded Mark into the van and got to the airport. Slung the bloke plenty.

Ordered the equivalent of $200,000 worth of McDonald's. Had six hours to kill before the plane took off but felt pretty safe at the airport.

We sat on the tarmac for 90 minutes as everyone was loaded on. There were people with burns, bandages. A lot of them were in a heap of pain.

When the plane levelled out, a doctor was straight up. The whole cabin was full of drips hanging everywhere.

Looking back on it all, I know we were the four most fortunate blokes that night. Not only were we all intact, relatively speaking, we were able to get out of the place. The only injuries I sustained were minor - glass fragments here and there.

I can't fully fathom what the people of Bali would be going through. They are friendly people. They try to rip you off but they do it with a smile. That's part of the process. You feel for them because their livelihoods will be up the s---. They would all have lost friends and families.

I am finding the hardest thing now is when you go to bed. You try to sleep but that's when the thoughts roll around in your head. I try not to think of the images of that night. I'm not saying I don't see those faces on the dead bodies, I do. But I'm trying not to look at them.

All sorts of questions. The what-ifs, the if-onlys, the how-did-we-survive-it? What if we were 10 steps quicker? We'd probably be dead. What if we were 10 steps slower? We wouldn't have been in the blast then. What if we caught the car? That's the biggest one. We had caught it every other night we were there.

I have tried to relate it to football. I love football - really, really love it. But all the times I have whinged and moaned about a silly little ankle injury or a corked thigh, or being dropped, I just think now how insignificant all that was because I definitely love life better than I do football.

Six months down the track and we will get back into a footy season and I will probably read articles about blokes feeling sorry for themselves because they have an ankle injury and will miss the first game. I am just going to treat all of that in a whole new way and wave it off.

I am not going to feel sorry for blokes who are missing games with a corked thigh.

People have died and been maimed for the rest of their lives, burned beyond comprehension.

I think I have got a whole new appreciation of life. That might seem pretty cold, but that is how I'm feeling.
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