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Old 10-08-2004, 10:07 PM   #31
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I don't know. But I think the thing I am most trying to point out is that it's all individual. What might be right for you may not be right for someone else. Perhaps the family will do something in the child's name. Polly Klass' death led to sexual predators having to register where they live. The Amber Alert was the result of the death of a child. Hearing about the deaths of thousands of Africans may make someone take action to make the world better -- African Well Fund is a prime example. Does it make up for the loss? No way. But perhaps the loss of one could lead to the prevention of the loss of another.
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Old 10-08-2004, 10:13 PM   #32
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That is all very pragmatic.

It may make the "world" right or balanced for some.

If it is your daughter, there is no reason and those answers only mollify the one making the statements
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Old 10-08-2004, 10:27 PM   #33
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so the parents are supposed to live the rest of their lives bitter and pissed off? as I said, I based what I believe on personal experience. did I deserve cancer? did I deserve to watch people die? No. I had a friend who told me I needed to not stay in and mope, I needed to go to a party on 9/11 this year, which was a Saturday, because it's been three years and I needed to get over it. I'm NEVER going to get over it.

Maybe I'm conceited but I don't think I did something that so pissed off God that he afflicated me with these things. Perhaps it's just a way for me to justify what has happened to me, to find an explanation, but that's my opinion and everyone's opinion on this is going to differ based on their own life experience.
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Old 10-08-2004, 11:36 PM   #34
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Deep---It all comes down to free will. If a sexual predator preys on a child that is a result of that predator's scewed rational. God didn't make us to be robots...He had no reason, no reason at all to create us--what would he possibly need from us? But He created us to have fellowship with us. And He gave us a choice.

God is sorrowed by some of our choices. He actually experiences heartache! In Genesis 6 the Lord's heart was described as being filled with pain. It was broken from seeing the evils that mankind did to each other. The tears of God are the meaning of history.

That's why I am saying the evils of the world fall on mankinds shoulders....to try to attribute these misfortunes to God would be arrogant. Humanity at is foundational level needs to be fixed...if we stepped out in love and treated everyone with compassion and equality can you imagine how much more beautiful this world would be? I refuse to accept that the world is just the way it is and there is nothing to be done.

AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS


Sharky....this is best I can give you right now, my friend.
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Old 10-09-2004, 12:04 AM   #35
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People can do evil things and people can do good things - we dont need to invent Gods and Monsters to explain humanity.
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Old 10-09-2004, 12:13 AM   #36
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Yes I agree. But there IS a God, A_Wanderer.
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Old 10-09-2004, 12:14 AM   #37
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Give me one good reason why there is a God?

I have seen no good evidence for such a being, people were worshipping the sun and moon long before God ever came into the equation. How is a Judeo-Christian God any more valid than those pagan belief structures. Isn't it all just baseless superstition.

*This topic can now start to get interesting
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:04 AM   #38
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You are very right about people worshipping the sun and the moon beforehand....you're missing some valuable points though. Have you ever really studied the Old Testament in light of the Christian faith, A_Wanderer? I can take the gloves off if you'd like.... The thing is this, however, I don't want to get into this if you are already anticipating shooting everything I say down--if you've got an open mind I'd love to discuss....I was a hardcore atheist once myself....

I'll be back later on today...I've got to get some shut eye, it's 4 AM over here in the States.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:10 AM   #39
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Sleep well, I will be more than happy to argue from my position with logic against faith.

As I have stated in the final analysis the existence of God is impossible to prove and disprove, so I am more than willing to accept your right to believe what you want to believe. I have no interest in throwing an atheist jihad against people for their beliefs. So some light hearted conversation on the topic of faith can be good.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:44 AM   #40
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Just cause I'm a smartass..I'm throwing this in real quickly...the nonexistence of God is impossible to prove and disprove as well. Even if you don't believe in God, you are still making a statement of faith. Except you have faith that there is no God...but it is still faith.

G'night!
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Old 10-11-2004, 03:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue
Deep---It all comes down to free will...
He had no reason, no reason at all to create us--what would he possibly need from us?
first of all, free will is for me much in the same vein as "everything happens for a reason." there is no such thing as "free will." no human is capable of making a completely objective decision; we are always influenced by something or someone.

second, i don't know why we are here or how we got here...i have my ideas, but they are pure speculation. but apparently god is in need of people to take a knee and give praise and thanks and admit how wretched a species we are...at least that's the feeling i get, not that i agree. i don't think god wants anything from us, especially not calculated dogma and theology.

and finally, i just wanted to make it clear that i understand how events throughout our lives shape us as individuals - that bad things happen all of the time and as shitty as they are, they help us to build character. what i don't believe is that these things happen by divine will or because we need to learn a lesson. my friend's mother did not die so that i could become a stronger person - any positive characteristics i get out of this will be the coincidental byproduct of a tragedy.

what happened to the god debate?
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Old 10-11-2004, 03:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
What do you say to someone whose 4 year old daughter was kidnapped by a sexual pervert.

And the 4 year old was abused for 3 weeks, slowly tortured and eventually beat to death?
Same answer I (a practicing Christian) have to many of the questions in this thread:

I don't know.
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Old 10-11-2004, 03:45 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en

and finally, i just wanted to make it clear that i understand how events throughout our lives shape us as individuals - that bad things happen all of the time and as shitty as they are, they help us to build character. what i don't believe is that these things happen by divine will or because we need to learn a lesson. my friend's mother did not die so that i could become a stronger person - any positive characteristics i get out of this will be the coincidental byproduct of a tragedy.
But see, that's how YOU deal with a tragedy. I disagree based on my past experience and based on the fact that is how I live my life. In the end, I think it's whatever you need to believe to keep you going -- be it God, drugs, meditation, candy bars, whatever. It's amazing that even if we include God in this debate, our personal philosophies are all over the place.

I like this thread. Very personal and emotional but I've been finding it quite interesting to see others have dealt with things in their lives -- ya know, personal philosophy.
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Old 10-11-2004, 03:53 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
Usually people say "Everything happens for a reason" because they don't know what else to say. I say it because I'm living proof of it. But I think Stammer is right -- when you have a chance to gain perspective, to look back at how you have changed, you may be surprised to find the positive things these events teach you about yourself. Like I said, life is crap. I talked to a friend whose sister died five years ago tonight. It's still not easy for her. I had a friend who told me I should just get over 9/11 and I thought she was out of her mind. These are not easy things to deal with, these are life things. And it hurts. but sooner or later, things get better, you realize your perspective of life is changed and you go on living because you realize how precious life really is.
I belive this with all my heart.
I may not have ever told you this Sharky, but reading your posts two years ago is what inspired me to begin posting.

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Old 10-11-2004, 04:03 PM   #45
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This topic came up in my ministry class last week. We were discussing if God were still present and active in the creation. We were also discussing how parts of the bible seem mythological.

At this point in the discussion, I was transported back to 1986 when I flipped my car into an oak tree. I shared with the class that my falling asleep at the wheel was the best thing that ever happened to me. I should have died that night. A few inches more and the roof of the car, where the tree had crushed the roof and I would have been. Instead I walked away on my own to the police cruiser.

I thought it was the worst thing that happened to me at the time. My mother beat the ever loving tar out of me when I got home from the hospital, even in the neck brace and with the cast. It pretty much ended my chances at a career as a classical clarinetist because of the damage to my hand. That was what I thought I was destined to do. It devistated me to not be able to play for almost a year.

It was the best thing, ever. It completely removed me from an abusive situation. I would not have met my wife if that had not happened. I would not have these two beautiful children. My life can be traced back to that event. That moment in time, where I know now, 16 years later, that my life would have been completely different.

I am not sure if this helps in the thread with the discussion but it was my example of what I believe was God's influence in my life. At the time I did not know why things were happening.....but I know that night changed my life, and I did not quite get it until last week.
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