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Old 10-07-2004, 05:39 PM   #16
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Second thought:

If this world is all you know, and realize it is seemingly skewed beyond repair, ask yourself how you would recognize such a thing, having lived here for so long; this being the only world you have experienced.

Does a fish that only knows wetness long for air? When you have only seen crooked lines, can you imagine a straight one?

If, in our world bad things happen to good people, ask yourself what it is in you that is repulsed by this. What is it that seems to expect something else. What does that telll you about yourself and the world you inhabit?

Example: We hunger - there is food. We thirst - there is water. We breathe - there is air. We have sexual needs - there is sex.

We long for a fair world in an unfair one - there is .... ?????
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Old 10-07-2004, 05:50 PM   #17
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The only point I'm really making here (and you can take it or leave it) is that our need for That Which Is Beyond Us is so inate, we even depend on it's existence for the very arguments we use to dismantle it.
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Old 10-07-2004, 09:16 PM   #18
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Interesting good vs. bad iota. It's subjective. But the point of all this is that its subjective to YOU. If you want to believe God will help you out, so be it. If you don't believe in God and get out on your own, so be it.

I think the larger picture we're all talking about is the Grief Cycle, whether you are griefing for a death or grieving for a broken leg or being evicted from your house etc. We find ways to deal with the problem as part of a journey from denial to acceptance. For some that is God, for some that is friends, for some that is simple inner peace. Whatever it is, we ultimately are our own judges when it comes to how we view our life. Who is in control? Whoever you want to be in control or whoever you want to believe is in control if you believe there is a force bigger than you.
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Old 10-08-2004, 12:17 AM   #19
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Originally posted by sharky
OK, I'm posting something I added to Dread's gift thread [which you should read] and I think it's appropriate here.

" I remember a neighbor coming over to our house. We had a monsignor [big Catholic priest guy] over and we're talking with him. She asked this monsignor why bad things happen to good people. He said it was because God loves us. Because you never know how important love is until you don't have it or how important happiness is until you are sad. I remember a friend bringing me soup and a card when I had bronchitis in college. The card read "You never realize how blessed you are to be healthy until you are sick." Indeed."

I believe this may be similar to Rabbi Kushner, deep, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Se7en, I know this sounds like total crap but I truly believe things happen for a reason. Looking back on this next year or five years from now or whatever, you may realize you've become stronger than you ever were, more courageous, more loving, living life more fully, whatever. What you get it out of it is for you. You will have more hardships in life, this is unfortunately not going to be the last, but these things are learning experiences that shape you as a human. It sucks, it really does, but sooner or later it gets better.

Quote:
I believe this may be similar to Rabbi Kushner, deep, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Not to take anything away from your experiences, but that is not the concept of his book.


I agree it does get better.

I remember someone telling me time heals all, just give it some time.

I was almost out of my mind. I was thinking he was telling a man engulfed in flames, "Don't worry eventually the fire will burn out"

well, it did and I got my life back.
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Old 10-08-2004, 07:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

Not to take anything away from your experiences, but that is not the concept of his book.
thanks for clarifying.
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:18 AM   #21
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Originally posted by sharky
Se7en, I know this sounds like total crap but I truly believe things happen for a reason. Looking back on this next year or five years from now or whatever, you may realize you've become stronger than you ever were, more courageous, more loving, living life more fully, whatever. What you get it out of it is for you. You will have more hardships in life, this is unfortunately not going to be the last, but these things are learning experiences that shape you as a human. It sucks, it really does, but sooner or later it gets better.
please don't take this as a personal attack, it is not my intention...

but why people think like this, i just cannot understand. if things truly happen for a reason then god has a lot of explaining to do. for what reason are millions of africans living in extreme poverty and hunger? are they becoming stronger people because they shit in the same water they drink from? is a 12 year old girl in china learning to appreciate the gift of human labor because after all, she gets a dollar at the end of her work day? over half the world's population lives on $2 american dollars or less a day, and for what reason? are they building character when they put there children to bed hungry every night? just as there is no justification for these situations, i see no divine justification or evidence of a plan when someone is stricken with cancer. if slowly being destroyed by a disease for 3 or 4 years is god's way of showing us how precious life is and that we can only realize that on our death bed is bullshit.

while i recognize that of course there are hardships in life, and that as learning experiences they shape us as human beings - there is no reason for them.

sorry, i'm grumpy this morning.
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:28 AM   #22
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There is never a higher reason for events, what interest would an all powerful being have in inflicting pain on an individual. Nobody is ever in control.

God's will is a wonderful concept of inventing an answer to any imaginable question; life, death and belief it all falls under the sway of a very simple and in many way implausible proposition. An all powerful being that holds an interest in individual peoples lives.

I refuse to accept the concept of determinism because I think that we have choice, at a fundamental level the universe is uncertain, application of science does not create a clockwork universe where everything is pre-determined. We are in control of our own lives and we will not be rewarded or punished by any higher power. Bad things happen, good things happen - the cause is always from within the universe.

The wheel never stops turning.
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:50 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
but why people think like this, i just cannot understand. if things truly happen for a reason then god has a lot of explaining to do. for what reason are millions of africans living in extreme poverty and hunger? are they becoming stronger people because they shit in the same water they drink from? is a 12 year old girl in china learning to appreciate the gift of human labor because after all, she gets a dollar at the end of her work day? over half the world's population lives on $2 american dollars or less a day, and for what reason? are they building character when they put there children to bed hungry every night? just as there is no justification for these situations, i see no divine justification or evidence of a plan when someone is stricken with cancer. if slowly being destroyed by a disease for 3 or 4 years is god's way of showing us how precious life is and that we can only realize that on our death bed is bullshit.
If I may speak for Sharky, I think a little clarification is in order. When people say things like "everything happens for a reason," their true intention may be "good things can result from bad circumstances." For instance, I don't believe God had the desire or will for your friend's mother to have cancer. I believe that the pain and agony you and your friends have faced in this ordeal is the same pain and agony that God feels when He watches His loved ones suffer.

However, I think what Sharky and others are trying to say is, good can come from bad situations. Basically, every cloud has a silver lining, sort of thing. Great life lessons and positive realizations can come from the tragedies we face in life. Tragedies aren't good in themselves, but good can come from them. Make sense?
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:59 AM   #24
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As far as my personal belief in where God plays a role in tragedy . . .

Theologically speaking, I think God's role in this world made a major change once sin entered the world. I believe that God loves our freedom and allows us to continue in the choices we make, even the wrong ones. Thus, once humankind chose sin, God allowed us to suffer the end results of our choice.

This is why I believe bad things happen to good people. Since humanity decided on its own selfish desires and not the ways of God, God allowed sin to have its destructive way on our world and the pain and agony it brings. We're all in this together, and thus God allows for bad things to happen to good people because He will not force His will or His action on a world we have chosen for ourselves. Disease, tragedy, natural disasters, accidents, murder, genocide, greed, lust, rage, apathy, etc. These are all products of what sin has wrought, and since all of humanity has chosen sin, all of humanity in some way faces these consequences.

Did your friend's mother SPECIFICALLY choose the painful and suffering of cancer? Absolutely not. She, as an individual, did nothing on her own to deserve what happened to her. But since she's a human being, and since she is a collective of the human race, she directly or indirectly lives with the choices we all make.

If there's anything to further explain or clarify, feel free to ask.
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:02 AM   #25
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Are you saying that the suffering of innocent people is because of the collective sin of humanity?
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:06 AM   #26
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In a way, yes. I believe that once humanity chose sin, the world became, well, jacked up. Thus the "innocent" suffer not because they personally have done anything wrong, but because they're unfortunate enough to live in a jacked up world.

It's all a mess. Pick up the morning paper and you can see that. But this mess is the mess we've created ourselves.

(BTW, A_Wanderer, even though we fall on the exact opposite sides of most spiritual issues, I always enjoy your posts. I appreciate it when an "opponent" can give solid responses.)
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:10 AM   #27
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It wasn't and isn't God's plan for any of us to die, and he doesnt leave us in the dark as why these things happen. A few points here are correct in that mankind is lost in sin but not by choice we are all sinners and born into sin because of adam and eve's disobedience in the garden of eden.. they were effectivly saying we don't need God we want to rule ourselves and the claim that satan made that Gods creatures don't need him and can rule themselves,
of course God could have wiped out satan and adam and eve back then and started over.. but would this question have been answered, can we rule ourselves successfully without Gods help and guidance?..

well he has let this time pass, let men have all sorts of goverments and do their own thing... some of the posts here have made it clear that humans haven't done a very good job of it from the state of the world.

Yet he did not abandon us to our fate that our parents adam and eve brought upon us.. of sickness and death, adam was a perfect man in the case of a soul for a soul and in his justice to buy us back from that sin and death brought about by adam and eve God send his son to earth he willingly give up his life in that terrible death to reconcile us with God.. that is why he is referred to as the lamb of God who has taken on the sins of the world

and also to become a king a king to a heavenly kingdom or goverment the one most christans pray the our father or the lords prayer.. let your kingdom come let your will be done on earth as in heavens... a lot of people never really take the time to think about these words and what exactly they are praying for.. but it is actually Gods goverment in heaven who is going to do away with worldly Goverments on earth run unsuccesfully by man

Gods plan is to oust satan and his demons who have been the cause of all this trouble we have seen, to bring about mankind into a loving close relationship with him not in heaven, but here on the earth,

do to away with sickness and death, when Jesus resurrected those dead and healed the sick when he was on earth it was a small sign of what he was going to do on a bigger scale one day in the bible God refers to death as an enemy he will finally wipe out.. I can understand your frustration at people saying it is Gods plan for people to die and they are happier with him in heaven.. that is not the case

it pains God very much when we lose loved ones in death and he looks forward to the day when he can resurrect them and return them to their loved ones and he is going to do it ver soon.. what exactly is he doing about it now is letting people know this is what he has planned for the future.. give them the chance to turn to him and be part of his plans.. of course he is not going to force you to worship him, but he is warning now that there will come a time when he is going to come to blows with satan and the demons and those on earth who oppose him when he will destroy the wicked, and now he is using this time for showing mercy and love by giving us the choiceof where we stand before he does take action..

so this attitide lets not worry about an after life and just live this life is not a very good one, when its now we have to make up our minds,

of course satan is happy to have people just think this life is all that there is and not worry about anything else, then he robs them of that chance of getting close to God and finding out what really is going on he doesnt care if we die.. the bible states that satan is blinding the minds of the unbelievers..

but in the end I guess its up to every one to believe what they want.. but I just had to put my bit in to answer your questions about what is Gods plan and to let you know he does care
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Old 10-08-2004, 06:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en



this is one part of religion i am no longer able to accept. i never gave god the finger, but i am damned by the sins of my forefathers. where is the love?

You gave Him the proverbial finger when you told Him you didn't need Him anymore....



You aren't damned by the sins of your forefathers....that's what grace is all about. Grace is love in action. It is God not treating us in a way we deserve. Grace implies a sense of mercy and compassion, a restoration of broken relationships-especially one's spiritual ties with God. Black becomes white, dark becomes light, no shame, no regret. God, who needs nothing from anyone, extends grace as an unselfish act of love.
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:44 PM   #29
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Originally posted by stammer476
If I may speak for Sharky, I think a little clarification is in order. When people say things like "everything happens for a reason," their true intention may be "good things can result from bad circumstances."
Indeed. I guess I'm so used to wrapping it up in the "Everything for a reason" mantra. I take it from personal experience. When I was 20, I was diagnosed with cancer, which made me realize I'm stronger than I thought I was. When I was 24, I worked across the street from the Trade Center -- until the morning I was at work and watched people jump to their deaths and outran two collapsing buildings. I remember conforting myself that day by thinking "Eh, I've been through this before." I was totally out of my mind, mind you, and in complete shock, but it comforted me in the months that followed, knowing that I was strong enough to handle that because I was strong enough to deal with a life-altering experience before.

The night of 9/11, a neighbor came over to my parents' house and said to my mom "God must have something planned for her if she keeps surviving these things." I believe she is right, I don't know what exactly he has planned but I believe she is right.

I think the difference betweeen you and I, Se7en, is the distance from the events. I'm not as angry as I first was after these traumas and I've been able to look more calmly at it. Three years after the 9/11 attacks, seven years in remission, I'm planning my wedding. I'm happy and I have the rest of my life to live. Will these things make me a better wife? A better mother? I dunno but that's what makes life interesting, for better or worse.

Usually people say "Everything happens for a reason" because they don't know what else to say. I say it because I'm living proof of it. But I think Stammer is right -- when you have a chance to gain perspective, to look back at how you have changed, you may be surprised to find the positive things these events teach you about yourself. Like I said, life is crap. I talked to a friend whose sister died five years ago tonight. It's still not easy for her. I had a friend who told me I should just get over 9/11 and I thought she was out of her mind. These are not easy things to deal with, these are life things. And it hurts. but sooner or later, things get better, you realize your perspective of life is changed and you go on living because you realize how precious life really is.
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:57 PM   #30
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What do you say to someone whose 4 year old daughter was kidnapped by a sexual pervert.

And the 4 year old was abused for 3 weeks, slowly tortured and eventually beat to death?
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