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Old 08-31-2003, 11:15 AM   #16
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While I do not agree with "blame the U.S. for everything evil" type arguments, I agree with Fizz that we've pulled some real screw-ups, especially in Vietnam and Latin America. Our whole Latin American policy has mostly sucked. I demonstrated against Reagan's Latin American policy, using murderers to hold up a right-wing dictatorship in El Salvador on the grounds that it was fighting Communism and funding other killers in Nicaragua to try to get rid of the Sandinista government. This was U.S. policy at its worst and thank God it was stopped by the first President Bush. He sensibly set up a fair, clean election in Nicaragua which was the way the Sandinista opposition got into power in a peaceful manner. There was no bloodshed on that election day in Nicaragua. There had never been any need for it and all that stuff was a fiasco.
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Old 08-31-2003, 12:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


You seem to dismiss this as "revisionist history and finger pointing at the US" but what is your own interpretation of events? Was the US-backed coup which overthrew the democratically elected Allende justified in the name of anti-communism? Was the dropping of napalm bombs on Vietnam similarly justifiable?
Hiroshima and Nagasaki-Justified
Coup in Chili-Justified
Vietnam-Was a War, Not getting sucked into another Napalm debate, had too many in here.


[Q]I'm really sorry if my post seemed to be attacking you and you felt insulted by it. I didn't intend that and I'm sorry that it came across like that. [/Q]

I accept that, but too often I am finding something I typed lumped in to someone making it seem like I do not value another human beings life. It is one of the reasons many are leaving here and no longer post.
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Old 08-31-2003, 12:37 PM   #18
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Why was it acceptable for the United States to orchestrate a coup against the democratically elected president of Chile? This led directly to the murder of thousands of innocent people in Chile under the regime of General Pinochet. The people of Chile, in an election, decided they wished to elect Salvador Allende as their president - what do you believe gave the United States the right to decide otherwise?
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Old 08-31-2003, 12:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Why was it acceptable for the United States to orchestrate a coup against the democratically elected president of Chile? This led directly to the murder of thousands of innocent people in Chile under the regime of General Pinochet. The people of Chile, in an election, decided they wished to elect Salvador Allende as their president - what do you believe gave the United States the right to decide otherwise?
Because Nixon did not like him.

Fizz...

I think that when you take away the historical context of the time, with the country worried about the spread of communism into the region, it is justified.

By my saying this, it is no way an endorsement of MR. Pinochet or his policies. But you can attempt to make that my position of you like.

See ya!
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Old 08-31-2003, 01:01 PM   #20
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what about how the panama canal came to be?
panama belonged to colombia back then and the colombians didnt want to create the canal. US didnt like that. so they funded the panama rebels and panama got its independence, that is why the US had influence on the canal....if i remember correctly.
it just goes to show that the US has tremendous power and sometimes it has been used for their own benefit and no one else's.
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Old 08-31-2003, 02:26 PM   #21
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And there was me thinking that it was conservatives who believed in moral absolutes and liberals who believed politics to be more nuanced.

Anyway. Historical context. Does the historical context make it acceptable for the US to overthrow a democratically elected government? I mean if, for instance, Iraq had feared it was about to be attacked by the US back in May, would it have been okay for them to send people over to Washington to obliterate the White House?

I don't think you do support Pinochet. I hope no decent person did. But you've just said you supported him being put into power. How does that work? The US was scared of communism so they sometimes had to support a fascist or ten? It was okay if they caused unbelievable suffering to innocent people because at least it wasn't Americans doing the suffering? As long as it wasn't Americans being herded into football stadiums and murdered in their thousands it was fine.

The USA professes to be a champion of democracy. How does that reputation square with overthrowing the democratically elected leader of another country?
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Old 08-31-2003, 03:57 PM   #22
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I see no way to justify the "Chile coup"
It was against a democratic elected government.
The US paniced when they heared the word communism. They shot down several democracies which seemed to be too close to the communists. (Iraq too)

The mistakes they made created many Antiamericanism in the World, because the US seemed like hipocrats they talked about liberty, freedom and democracy, but supported dictators as soon as other democracies shifted from capitalism to communism.

So, no excuses - they abused their power as soon as they had the power

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Old 08-31-2003, 05:04 PM   #23
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I'm glad it was a hoax. Btw, GGM did not write 'Like Water for Chocolate', that was Laura Esquivel.

Though the letter was blatantly badly written, and though I do not wish to be sucked into another debate about the screw-ups of America, I do feel I should express my own opinion to events that have already been mentioned, revisionist or not.

Respectfully, Dreadsox, none of the three conflicts you mentioned are justified.

Ant.
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Old 08-31-2003, 05:07 PM   #24
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I don't think an anal fear of the spread of communism is a reason to excuse the US interference in legitimate foreign governments.

We were wrong IMO regardless of the reasons, including in Iran and Iraq. We helped the British overthrow the Iraqi Gov't because they nationalized the oil in thier country as was Iran.

edited to add:

The governments we helped overthrough weren't even truly communist, more socialist, although they may have had diplomatic interactions wwith Russia. Then we can add those in Africa to our list of horrendous results of interference.
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Old 08-31-2003, 05:41 PM   #25
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Allende was elected as a socialist in 1970. I think it was a mistake to overthrow his government. Like I've said I am not fond of U.S. Latin American policy, period. Some of the people who executed it no doubt meant well but I think they were sincerely wrong. I just don't agree.
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Old 08-31-2003, 05:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony

Respectfully, Dreadsox, none of the three conflicts you mentioned are justified.

Ant.
You need to write me better then!!!!
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Old 08-31-2003, 06:11 PM   #27
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Sorry, but I agree that it was necessary to do what we could to fight the spread of communism. I again stress I do not agree with how it went down. Much as I agree we needed to act in Iraq, but not in the way this went down.

Japan had NOT surrendered unconditionally. Hiroshima was a MAJOR producer of weapons that were being used on US forces. I find it to be rediculous to eliminate that it was a military target. The Japanese would agree with that, as I posted in another thread, they have been working over there to make certain that their Imperialistic behavior was also responsible for the place they found themselves at that time.

Vietnam, napalm is bad nasty stuff. I can agree with you there. Was the Vietnam War justified...yes. Was it fought correctly no.



I am really regretting responding to this thread. I should have bowed out at the hoax post and left it in the gutter where it stood.
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Old 08-31-2003, 08:51 PM   #28
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Lol, Dreadsox, I 'should' write you better. Hrm, I don't know... I think some interesting developments are in store for you, some very interesting twists and turns in the plot. I think I may indeed fix it so that Dreadsox will vote Democrat in the next election. My, that would be a twist the readers wouldn't expect.

Seriously, though, don't regret inserting those comments in, Dreadsox, they sparked debate, and civil at that. If you're too tired to debate, you could always admit defeat. You're a gentleman who I love to disagree with, because your debate is constructive and above all, respectful. So don't regret it, be proud of it!

However, I still disagree.

I'm sorry, (and in no way is this a purposeful and rash generalisation of American thought, but I have noticed that it is very popular in the USA in particular, not just the 'Western world') but I have always disagreed and failed to comprehend the completely irrational fear of communism, and it was this fear, more than anything else, that caused so many errors and so many deaths. Do I agree with communism? No, though I admit that my family has communist (as well as fascist) roots, a few of my family members are communists, and I do not condemn them any more than my Conservative family members (I would like to add that I do not equate the Conservatives with the fascists at all, I just happen to disagree more with Conservatives than Communists). I disagree with Communism, though I am a Socialist, but everytime we reach the whole anti-communism campaign it truly angers me how the Western world dealt with it, and I strongly disagree with how the American government in particular dealt with it. To this day, this overwhelming fear of communism still seems irrational to me. I hope one day I will be in a position to understand.

The coup in Chile was, I'm sorry to say, absolutely disgusting and it continues to be so, and there is no way to justify the removal of power from someone who was elected democratically and giving it to someone who caused so much damage and so much pain, simply because one upheld the same economic values as the USA did, and the other did not. Similiarly, I would like to address the continuing controversy of Cuba. Now, Castro is a dictator, there is no doubt about that, but so was his predecessor Batista, who of course was supported by the American government, the only difference being, of course, was that Batista's economic opinions were quite close to the USA's. Forgive me, but I do not see this mentality as a justification.

Japan did not surrender unconditionally, and it needed to be attacked. What I'm concerned here is proportionality. Two atomic bombs is not proportional with an aerial attack.

The Vietnam war, ultimately, had nothing to do with the USA.

Ant.
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Old 08-31-2003, 09:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
Lol, Dreadsox, I 'should' write you better. Hrm, I don't know... I think some interesting developments are in store for you, some very interesting twists and turns in the plot. I think I may indeed fix it so that Dreadsox will vote Democrat in the next election. My, that would be a twist the readers wouldn't expect.
The readers would not expect that in my youth I was a worker in an openly gay democratic congressman's office.....

But I was!!!!!!
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Old 08-31-2003, 09:59 PM   #30
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I know; thats how I wrote it.

Ah, Dreadsox... the wonderful live I have lived through you.

Ant.
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