Aussies, drugs, S.E Asia

[Angela Harlem]

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15130755%5E401,00.html

I'm remaining hopeful the judges don't override the prosecutions request for life and give her the death penalty, but I think this is more because I am pretty convinced she is innocent. This case has bothered me right from the start, and quite frankly makes me sick. The last paragraph in this article makes me wonder if the agreement was made after Barlow and Chambers who, if I remember rightly, were confirmed guilty?

And does anyone have a clue as to why the Federal police didn't arrest the Bali 9 at the airport before they left? I've had trouble catching any decent news stories in this lately so I hope someone can fill me in. I'm trying to google news about it now, but am not having much luck.

My point is, I guess, where does guilt start and end. From what I have seen, it cannot be proven likewise for Schapelle, that she was aware of the pot being in her bag any more than she can prove she had no idea. Their judicial system seems to be based on the 'prove your innocence' side, but when that is impossible due to the nature of how this occurred, how can she then be deemed guilty? It doesn't prove she must have known, just because she cannot prove it. And the 9, they were at least mules, but traffickers? Many people can end up in a situation they wouldn't normally be in when under threat, or family is threatened. It doesn't make someone a criminal does it? It makes them coerced into criminal activity, and then weighted by the fact that these fellows are facing a firing squad, it just doesn't seem enough to me.

 

[intedomine]

I'm sick to death with how messed up the nation of Indonesia is.

Schapelle's life is on the line cause of their crap bloodthirsty heartless legal system, all for the seemingly innocent offence of possessing pot. Was she even plannin to deal it?

Such a harmless and sexy girl is gonna be murdered for doing nothing.

People should just boycott the hellhole that is Indonesia, even though the shambolic condition of the country is just typical of a nation that puts religion ahead of any effort to achieve social harmony and political reform.

The country needs to take a long hard look at themselves, and until they do that and take some radical action, I'm not gonna have anything to do with the place.

I'm ashamed that they are one of Australia's closest neighbours.

What a messed up country....

 

[Angela Harlem]

Thank you

 

[Irvine511]

this doesn't make news on my side of the world, but i wish it did because it's interesting ... what's your sense -- do you think the Indonesian government would come down harder on an Australian or westerner?

i also can't believe anyone puts pot and heroin in the same category.

 

[A_Wanderer]

A lot of countries do, pretty much zero tollerance ~ there are benefits to such a system and I cannot find any sympathy for the likes of the 'Bali 9'.

 

[Angela Harlem]

this doesn't make news on my side of the world, but i wish it did because it's interesting ... what's your sense -- do you think the Indonesian government would come down harder on an Australian or westerner?

i also can't believe anyone puts pot and heroin in the same category.

If a trafficking law can result in a death sentence, do you think that these 2 cases are the same? Given the behaviour of the feds here, I dont see any reason why the Bali 9 canot face charges here for attempting to export drugs. Call me biased, but at least their trial would be fair.

 

[dazzlingamy]

i agree with schappelle corby being innocent, there just seems to be so much evidence in her NOT doing it, then them proving she HAS done it you know?

but for the Bali 9 (well for the 4 that were arrested with the herorin strapped to the bodies) they deserve the punishment for being guilty. I am against the death penalty, but luckily i dont live in Indonesia and have to deal with it.

Case in point, they went to indonesia to do something illigial, who cares if they didn't know it was drugs or not, you have to be pretty stupid not to get suspicious if a friend says 'if you go to bali with me we can make 15,000 dollars each! but i dont know how...)
and the fact that their families were threatened, well they shouldnt have gone in the first place and if they are sentanced to die, they should die.

But for the 5 that were not found at the airport, they shouldn't be sentanced to death, because they wern't technically trafficing drugs.

I just hate how they are trying to lump schapelle corby in with the bali 9. Its stupid as they are soooo not related!

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I lived in Indonesia for 13 of the best years of my life, so please lay off calling it a "hell-hole". It is a country with its faults and problems like any other but also with amazing beauty and wonderful people many of whom are my close friends.

 

[cardosino]

I'm sick to death with how messed up the nation of Indonesia is.

Schapelle's life is on the line cause of their crap bloodthirsty heartless legal system, all for the seemingly innocent offence of possessing pot. Was she even plannin to deal it?

Such a harmless and sexy girl is gonna be murdered for doing nothing.

People should just boycott the hellhole that is Indonesia, even though the shambolic condition of the country is just typical of a nation that puts religion ahead of any effort to achieve social harmony and political reform.

True. Corruption is also high on the list of priorities. Been there many times, it is indeed a hellhole.

However, I can't remember about Indonesia, but I still go to Philippines a lot, it's pretty clear on the incoming paperwork, "The penalty for drug traffickin is death" - Or words to that effect. I believe Indonesia was similar.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Yes, it's posted everywhere in airports there (the death sentence threat). Indonesia is a great place, it's laws are pretty backward though, and I think it is a case of 'prove your innocence' as opposed to 'prove their guilt'/

On Corby - I really do think she's completely innocent. I sincerely hope she gets off, but I doubt it. I don't see how she can get out of it either, except with severe intevention from the govt here, and I can't see that happening.

On the 'Bali 9' - I agree that, no matter what threats or whatever they claim got them there, they still made a decision, one where they clearly knew the risks involved, and therefore will and should face the consequences.

Having said that, I'm firmly against the death penalty, and hope that if it is handed down that the Australian Govt does everything possible to reverse it, and if Johnny doesn't have the balls to do that, I hope the Australian people rally to make him.

 

[A_Wanderer]

He should rasise the issue but he has no right to demand anything, it is that pretentious behaviour where Australian leaders force the hand of the Indonesians that can create problems.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I don't think it would be about 'demanding' anything. Just a deal in some degree, or a pleading for an understanding. Howard is pretty keen on the new Indo President, and vice versa, and there is now a genuine good chance that the relationship can get a whole lot better (or at least stable). A big part of that is the respective populations opinions of each others nations. I guess you could say that if Indonesia takes 9 young Australians out the back and shoots them, their 'approval rating' dives. I think the Australian public is (correctly) disgusted by the actions of these guys, but if they get the death penalty, that will turn quickly and it will turn against Howard, and Indonesia as a whole.
At any one point in time I imagine there are a million 'deals' on the table between Australia and Indonesia, and both leaders are keen to scratch each others backs at every opportunity. I'm sure just a little, private squeeze in the right area could get them into jail for life, but keep them alive. No demands, and never has to be even sensed by the public. And I mean, it's Indonesia. When it comes to the law, a deal can always be made.

 

[beli]

this doesn't make news on my side of the world, but i wish it did because it's interesting ... what's your sense -- do you think the Indonesian government would come down harder on an Australian or westerner?

Australians are Westerners.

I think Indonesians do come down harder on Australians because we do have a bit of a not entirely friendly relationship with Indonesia.

Also Bali is also full of Australians. If a Westerner was to get done in Bali, the odds are very much that it would be an Australian.

 

[Axver]

Though, really, would you WANT to be in an Indonesian jail for life?

I think I'd take the death sentence.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Amrosi seems to be having a bloody swinging time as seen on the ACA interview with him and the dumbfuck who runs that shithole jail

Sula, I doubt anyone means any ill sentiment toward the people of Indoneasia, but more the corruption and so on of the higher powers.

Dazzlingamy, I'm not sure how much of the Indo legal system you understand, but even all of the 9 aren't all traffickers and certainly don't deserve a firing squad for such. Your blase attitude is admirable.

 

[dazzlingamy]

i didnt say all of the 9 deserve a firing squad. I said the 4 that were found with the herorin strapped to their bodies deserve whatever punishment the indonesian government gives them, because they are undoubtably guilty.

I think the other 5 shouldn't be killed, or even have life in prison.

But what i think is the bigger picture, is that once these drugs are in the country, how many more lives will be torn a part by drug users who use heroin. I'm not saying they are innocent, but if we didn't have idiotic people trafficing drugs into our coutry, maybe we could combat drug pushing once and for all...

and im not being blase about someone's life, if you read my post, i said i was against the death penalty, but then i wouldnt traffic drugs from a place where it is clearly stated EVERYWHERE that if you traffic drugs you will die.
its a simple as that.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Proven guilty? How exactly is this, when there was NO evidence at all, of her involvement in this smuggling? Something stinks in the Indo legal system where the Bali bombing mastermind Abu Bakar Bashir gets 4.5 days per victim, or 2 and a half years, and she gets 20 bloody years for something no one can prove otherwise she had any hand in. And now dickface Downer is changing his tune on a prisoner exchange, where previously he had said it wouldn't be likely.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000081&sid=akSZ.Dj0M5ZA&refer=australia

 

[A_Wanderer]

The concept of sovereignty is important in diplomacy, one does not get cooperation by making demands.

There was evidence; there were drugs, they were in her bag and her defence could not substantiate how they got in there ~ it may be a crappy legal system but it is something that unfortunately does exist and cannot be interfered with directly without concequence.

Downer is doing the right thing, it would be wrong to make promises about prisoner exchange (a big issue with a lot of other factors) that cannot be kept.

 

[beli]

Is the Indonesian legal system an "innocent until proven guilty" type or "guilty until proven innocent" type? I could be wrong but it may be the later.

20 years is rather a long time for the nature of the "crime".

 

[Angela Harlem]

There's not a great deal of diplomacy between us and Indonesia. Never will be, when we prefer to take the meek approach and just accept their terms, regardless of how fair they are.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Diplomacy is not about getting along, it is a working relationship.

We do not always take the meek approach, we got involved in East Timor to make sure that Indonesia got out(after our betrayal of them under Whitlam). We pushed during the political crisis at the end of the Suharto years and we make our position regarding Indonesia's track record on Islamist groups quite clear.

This is an issue of sovereignty, the Australian government is in no position to make any demands over the Indonesian judicial system, requests however are legitimate.

 

[beli]

I think its a bit more complicated than that, Angie. Do you remember the time the Australian government chucked a wobbly about something and the Indonesian government decided all Australians needed a visa to enter Indonesia effective immediately. The people who were already on planes headed out to Bali landed at Denpasar and had to come all the way back.

Diplomacy is difficult but its really the only way.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I'm not arguing that diplomacy doesn't work or should never be attempted.

 

[beli]

Oops, sorry if I sounded a bit narky in my last post, Angie. (especially the first sentence).

 

[intedomine]

Here's an idea.

Get all the Aussies who want Schapelle to be free and the 16 million of us can all go to Indonesia and free her from the hands of those "kidnappers".

C'mon someone has got to do something. 20 years for nothing is a disgrace.....I'm still doubtin she's even guilty of such a petty act.

What next? A 5 year old boy on holiday with his family is jailed for life for stealing a bag of lollies?

C'mon world let's boycott all things Indonesian. I'm fed up with the nation (not necessarily the people), and the crap corrupt mess that Indonesia is.

 

[Halifax]

Can someone please answer me this question:

What is it the the Bali bombers, who killed hundreds of innocent tourists in a bomb attack, are either released free or given four years, while Schapelle Corby is given 20 years for supossedly bringing in marijuana?

Let me just say that I am truly disgusted, appalled and generally outraged at the verdict. Personally, I firmly believe she is innocent, but whether you think she is guilty or not, rotting away in a prison for 20 years for a bag a marijuana is an immense injustice when terrorists who killed hundreds of innocent people are given a slap on the wrist.

Justice is truly blind with Schapelle Corby.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Frankly I don't really give a piss about Shapelle, this is the "Dianification" of Australia whereby things get blown out of all proportion while others are ignored totally. One woman who had a weak defence that did not stand up to scrutiny is found guilty, she is sentenced to 20 years under Indonesian laws, but since she is white and young she gets the most sympathetic media coverage. She has right of appeal, a prisoner exchange program may be established in due time.

Trafficking drugs is not nothing in Indonesia, there are plenty of cases where Australians have been involved in the drug trade in SE Asia and in light of the inability of the defence to prove that the drugs were not hers or break down the procecutions case it is not unexpected.

All this talk of boycotts and not contributing in disasters is a load of crap, taking punitive action because of the process in the Indonesian judicial system (which I may add convicted the Bali bombers to death) seems haphazard.

How would Australians feel if an Indonesian was caught with drugs in their baggage entering Australia, was tried and convicted and then the Indonesian government and people were to demand that the verdict be overturned or the prisoner released?

 

[Aussie]

So Schapelle got 20 years in an indonesian jail, you get less for murder here in Australia, unfortunetly.
I've never been to Bali and after this I will never go.
People I know who have been to Bali have said they got offered
drugs all the time over their. They don't seem to worry about their
own people selling drugs to tourists.
Boycott Bali, go to Phukett instead, they need the tourists there.

 

[lucky charms]

this still seems unbalanced to me. Understandable I suppose because of differing laws and penalities, but pains me to think the same offence occurs here in Canada and they get half that sentence and then when turn around, it is reduced because perhaps it is first offence, then reduced again perhaps because lets see, a plea bargain where they point the finger at the people who supplied them with the drugs in the first place

it still seems a little lopsided to me..plus isnt there a separate investigation taking place looking into the role of airport staff and the drug trade.

still the burden of proof obviously was not made. A simple they did it, wouldnt be good enough for me if I was on a jury and asked to find someone innocent just because they say so...at least show some evidence, any at all, that may give reason to think innocence is possible.

still people make threats against officials, and try and add economic pressure on another country just because 1 person is found guilty of a crime..do you have any idea how many people who are convited of crimes later to be let out after evidence proves otherwise..where were the protests, and boycotts for them...

very lopsided if you ask me.the question I would ask is what makes her so specail anyway to prompt all the neverending support.

 

[foray]

Something stinks in the Indo legal system where the Bali bombing mastermind Abu Bakar Bashir gets 4.5 days per victim, or 2 and a half years, and she gets 20 bloody years for something no one can prove otherwise she had any hand in.

I know, Ang. It is angering. You have a right.


foray