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Old 01-19-2005, 02:43 PM   #76
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As a personal opinion, I find it hard to believe that we are result of many perfect coincidences. Somehow, humans are alive, they can think and enjoy their perfectly constructed bodies, yet believe that there is no reason behind it.

Lets examine the human body... if intelligent design has no merit, then how cna the human body not be "perceived" as intelligent. Think about it, there is a brain/organ for reproduction/stomach to digest/limbs/eyes to see.

Think of all the processes that a body has when it gets sick.etc

Everything about it implies design. As an anecdote, a friend of mine in Med.School told me the following recently "I am not religious, but the way the human body works, there had to be somebody who created it..the design is perfect"
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:48 PM   #77
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coemgen,

I enjoyed your latest point, it exemplifies a lot of what I think as well.

Here is another question

-isnt it convenient that there is a thin gaseous layer in the atmosphere, the protects us from the deadly ultraviolet rays from the sun, and the vacuum of space.

-If there is no intelligent design, then how does the earth systematically rotate on schedule everyday, and how does the earth tilt, consistently within the schedule of a calendar, to have seasons such as winter and summer.

I fully acknowledge that these are not proofs for the existance of god, under the current scientific method. But I do believe that this may urge us to "scratch beneath the surface".
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:09 PM   #78
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Ah, the intelligent design argument. I, along with many others, find it weak.

There's a good read here...good discussion:
http://www.skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html

Just because the universe seems "too perfect" or "too special" (from a human point of view...whatever universal value "perfection" means), still doesn't mean it HAD to be designed.

What if our universe is just part of hundreds of trillions and zillions of other universes existing side by side (or in side by side dimensions/"membranes"/"branes" as some of the new theories say)? What if there are almost an infinite number of universes randomly coming into and going out of existence, all with their own special physics and qualities? Maybe some have the ability to have stars and then planet and maybe some don't. Maybe some are empty. Maybe some have their own race of beings that could even be God-like creatures? When you look at it that way, the fact that one of those universes end up having materials and physical laws that result in a planet like earth and a species like human beings isn't that extraordinary. It's all how you look at it.

I have a hard time with the argument: "look around...there's perfection all around; you can't explain this as just a coincidence; you can ONLY explain it as God." (Bono says the same thing in the HTDAAB delux-edition book.)

With all that said, if it's the case that there are an infinite number of universes, hell, why can't we have a universe that was created with a God, one who then created all the stars and planets and has the power to control its universe. I guess we can. But i'll wait for more proof.

Or, if there's just the one universe (ours), maybe it's the fact that it was created by a God that committed suicide. Blowed himself up real good. The suicide was the first cause...the big bang. We live because of His sacrificing energy. But i'll wait for more proof.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:13 PM   #79
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Also, many could make a good point of saying that the universe really isn't that perfect.

Materials break down. Everything tends toward entropy. We die. Stars die.

Doesn't sound that perfect to me.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:23 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judah

With all that said, if it's the case that there are an infinite number of universes, hell, why can't we have a universe that was created with a God, one who then created all the stars and planets and has the power to control its universe. I guess we can. But i'll wait for more proof.

What kind of proof would you be looking for exactly? not being funny or anything.. just that I was an aethist and thought that the belief in God and religion was dumb because people couldnt handle the fact that they died just like it has been stated here and that was the end of it ...and like you I wanted more proof and found it..

not that you might even agree with the same conclusion I reached after my investigation into this, so I am not going to go over it here cos it would take forever *lol*

but I am just curious as what you consider proof of the existence of God and a creator?
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:34 PM   #81
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Good question re: proof.

I don't know how you answer "what kind of proof."

I suppose i could get very specific, demand that this God come to me right now in front of me right now and, um, reassemble Kurt Cobain and John Lennon and my father right here in my room, and make them jam (my father was a sitarist!)

That could be a start, i suppose. That would give me a good start.

Or maybe the God could come and show me a PowerPoint presentation that explains the whole of existence and it makes perfect sense...explain the science of it, the why of it, the history of everything.

I know, i know...many will say this has already been done and the answers are there and that the only reason i don't see them is because i choose not to see them.

But really...that reassembling Cobain, Lennon and daddy Judah would be a neat trick!

[Ok, this discussion is getting kind of first-year university. A_Wanderer, we need you back in here with your high-falutin' ideas!]
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:37 PM   #82
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Originally posted by Judah
Also, many could make a good point of saying that the universe really isn't that perfect.
Why the leap year?

God couldn't do the math?


or he wanted to create controversy

Because he did not have cable.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:37 PM   #83
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Irvine — thanks for responding as well. You said that you know see life as something to be survived. Honestly, that saddens me to hear that that's how you view life. (I mean that sincerely.) I commend you for seeking understanding, insight, explanations and all that, and for taking on the challenges of life. And I know you have a good heart because you seek to give back and help people and live an ethical life. I think you're doing so more than most. But you said you don't really need God to lead such a life. Maybe this is true to some degree. But consider this – where does morality come from? Where does this yard stick of what's good and what's not come from? Why is it ideal to seek what's good?
I know you believe there's a God, and I think that's totally cool. I challenge you (as well as everyone else) when your lying in bed tonight to talk to him. (I know this will be easier for those who actually BELIEVE in God.) He wants to hear from you. Bono once said "All God wants is a willing heart and for us to call out to him." I couldn't agree more. I fully believe, if you do this with all your heart, you'll begin to see life as more than just surviving. I'm praying for you buddy.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:59 PM   #84
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This thread has grown a lot.

The only point I would like to add is in regards to the "perfection" that is the human being.

All of the things that are mentioned, circulatory system, brain, heart, lungs etc. Don't other animals have these organs? If you take a monkey and you not find the same pieces? Likewise with a dog, rat or frog? These things are incrediable but you are looking at a finished product of evolution you do not look at the 3.5 billion years of life that went before or the very minor changes over that time that have added up in that time. All the biological functions from the feedback mechanisms that regulate some hormones to the chemical pumps that maintain balance within your cells exist in other life forms and you can work your way backwards to find common ancestry. Taken to the extreme this is a model that shows microbes to man, but you also have to understand that it is like

anaerobic heterotrophic microbe to anaerobic autotrophic microbe to photosynthetic microbe etc.etc. etc. for a billion more species in between.

Quote:
But consider this – where does morality come from?
Morality is for the most part an aspect of human society, it provides a framework for social interactions which can be beneficial for clans of humans when hunting or interacting. I also think that morality can be derived through logical axioms and that is why across most cultures there are common threads, i.e. cold blooded murder is usually looked upon badly.
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:02 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i suppose i now see the purpose of life as something of a challenge, to do the best you can with what you've been given. and also something of obligation, to give back to those who gave to you. to live an ethical life as well, i think.
I think that's a good response, actually. It hits home to me.
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:06 PM   #86
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Judah, the Cobain/Lennon thing would be pretty freaking cool. I would like God to bring back Jeff Buckley myself. Heck, I'd like him to do a lot of things, but there's a small problem. He's God, and I'm just a pesky human. He's holy, and I'm not. He's all knowing, and I'm an "intellectual tortoise." He's loving and I'm only that way some of the time. He's always existed and I was only created 27 years ago. He's all powerful, and I can't hold either of my own sons for too long without getting tired. My point is he's in control. He has a plan. Jeff Buckley coming back may please me and even a ton of other people, but it's not in line with his plan. I'm sure you were joking with your comment, but I'm still rambling anyway. I don't need God to do something outrageous for me to know he exists. He's changed my life completely, as well as my wife's and many other people I know or have heard of. My mom smoked for decades and tried everything to quit. As a Christian, she finally realized she just needed to pray. She did, and she hasn't smoked for years. That's proof to me. My wife grew up in an abusive home, was molested, had an abortion, and has been raped. She also saw life as something to just survive. However, God's revealed his perfect love to her that even I can't give her and she can actually look in the mirror and see something beautiful. That's another God sighting for me. I just heard a guy from church share his story the other day about how when he first became successful as a lawyer, he got into cocaine. He was addicted to it. It destroyed his life. He believed in a God, and one day fell to his knees in helplessness. He later asked God for forgiveness through Christ, sought God's will for his life and now he can't wait to tell you about Christ's love. I know us Christians sometimes sound like we're Star Trek fans at a Star Trek convention or something, but this is real stuff. This goes above science and human logic. If you honestly want proof of God, ask him to reveal himself to you in HIS own way. I promise he will.
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:09 PM   #87
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Which raises the deeper question is God an outside force or is faith and God a part of our minds? Having strong faith can certainly be an advantage in survival, go furthur than you could otherwise for instance.
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:20 PM   #88
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A.W., you're right on man. Monkeys, dogs, rats and frogs have brains, hearts and lungs!! As a Christian, I'm with you on this one. : ) (I'm just teasing you by the way, not attempting to urinate you off. I honestly respect your opinion and can tell that you're an intelligent person.)
If you want to play the evolution card, consider this: all these parts, the brain, heart, lungs, circulatory system, etc., had to have been in the first "humans" or animals or whatever anyway. So really, you don't have much of an argument in bringing up evolution. The first beings on Earth still had to have food and it just so happens, it was right there on Earth for them to eat and enjoy! If there was no creator behind all of this, even with evolution in place, there still would've had to have been a proverbial jigsaw puzzle thrown up in the air and it still would've had to land perfectly in place. In fact, if you want to include evolution, I would argue that puzzle would have even more pieces in it than the one without evolution.

As far as the morality thing, you didn't really answer the question. Why is it there? Why do we seek to be moral beings? If there's a basic right and wrong that humans agree on, it must be there for a reason too.
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:23 PM   #89
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I think there are principles of both evolution and creation that could coexist.
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:28 PM   #90
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God's an outside force. i.e. creation. Also, he answers prayers specifically. Not all prayers that way, but he has done so none the less. Also, I have a relationship with him. I know that sounds hokey to those who don't believe in him, but it's true.
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