Atheism revisited.

[Irvine511]

Because most christians are creationists. Your comments were purely intended to flame and provoke other christian members on this board, who have everY right to believe what they will. You will find that the majority of the people in your country believe this story too.. I dont agree with it, but I dont disrespect them on a public message board either.

okay, it would be much easier to write "grow up" or "go fuck yourself with the axe you want to grind," but i'll chalk all this up to the fact that you don't seem to have any idea what goes on in FYM.

we challenge ideas, dogma, beliefs. we respect everyone's right to hold beliefs, but if you come in here, you should expect them to be challenged, and you should then return that challenge. the intention is not to flame, but to debate, argue, agree, dissent, and whatever else -- if you're here looking for fuzzy affirmation, you've come to the wrong place. you have no idea what my comments were "purely intended" to do, and the more you assert what it is you think i was saying, the sillier you sound.

now, please -- get back to the discussion at hand.

 

[Irvine511]

Can you feel the love in tha room? Irvine, as a Chrstian, I don't take offense to anything you said. Let's ALL move on and put our two cents toward something more valuable.

sorry, i alredy responded

we should take your advice and move on.

 

[Anthony]

Gentlemen - please ignore each other. It is obvious you are both incapable of not letting emotions get the better of you.

If you don't ignore each othe, the thread will be closed. And no, siwssair, it wont be just Irvine's fault, it'll be yours as well.

Ant.

 

[swissair135]

Beautiful response Irvine511... a stroke of genius right there All along, all I wanted was affirmation

This was a great thread, lets get back to it.

 

[coemgen]

Swissair, so are you an atheist?

 

[swissair135]

No im not.

Im a moderate christian. I believe that Jesus is the son of god, and believe that there is a god who created the planet, and all the mechanisms/systems that come with it (water cycle, gravity, ozone layer, plate tectonics, oceans etc.).

These things just didnt form on their own (IN MY OPINION! ) ..but there is no scientific proof, other than reasonable assertions based on what we know of the physical world.

 

[coemgen]

Thanks for sharing that. What about the atheists in the hizzous? What, if any, is the purpose to life from your atheistic perspective? I'm sincerely wanting to understand your viewpoint. klink, A.W. Irvine?

 

[Judah]

Judah, thanks for responding. I understand that we can attach meaning to our lives without considering a creator. I'm talking about meaning that we don't have to attach — a genuine purpose. Something bigger than anything we can attach. (And, to clear things up, my faith isn't based on mythologies.)

You said that you really, really, really hope there is no God because you would feel special and unique if you were the result of radomness. I don't mean this to sound bad, but does that mean you're happy being considered an accident? I'm seriously just wandering. I'm not trying to start a big argument or anything. I just want to understand this point of view. As far as being designed for God's purpose, that's only part of it. As a Christian, I also believe he created me out of love. It's much like your parents having you as a baby. It was done more so out of love than for their own purpose. If God is God, he doesn't need any of us for his purpose, he created us out of love. Maybe that sounds trite to others here, but think about it. Does that make sense?

Thanks for your genuinely polite post.

I guess, to boil it down, my point was that a God is not required when one is not necessary. I have yet to see an argument that convinces me that a creator is required to most satisfactorily explain existence. Of course, "necessity" is subjective and, so, you have the presence of many religions, Gods, mythologies to put purpose to one's existence.

And, yes, i still say i would find less purpose in life if there WAS a God, then when there isn't. How much more precious and special life seems when we know there isn't someone taking care of us and that don't worry we'll have eternal afterlife to have a way better existence than this one. Doesn't it feel more important to think that it's all up to us? It's up to us to take care of each other? I find way more urgency in that thought and way more responsibility.

To answer your question re: being happy i'm an accident: i am just happy "being" period. And i find purpose in life because life seems inherently purposeful and, therefore, important. Anything else i.e. an ultimate answer to existence...an answer to our collective "purpose"...would be a bonus...but, also, to me, an answer or answers must be consistent with what we humans depend upon to guide us through existence. Ultimately, the best way i've seen to get those answers is through the language of science, logic, etc....what A-Wanderer has so eloquently laid out in the posts here. Reliance on God, religions, to get these answers, and therefore an explanation to one's "purpose" is an all-too-convenient short cut (to me). (But also an understandable one.)

You never said this, but a bias i sense sometimes from thiests is that they think athiests are not spiritual that they can't find the wonder in a Godless universe or existence. Far from the truth. I'd argue the opposite. Athiests find just as much real spiritual beauty in existence. We just don't need a God to appreciate the beauty and importance of the answers we find or the experiences we have.

 

[swissair135]

"and therefore an explanation to one's "purpose" is an all-too-convenient short cut (to me). (But also an understandable one.)"

-I appreciate and understand this point. However, isnt it all too convenient to "not scratch beneath the surface" sort of speak. We know the science of the world, but do want to know "who" is behind the science.

I guess both are convenient and self-serving.

 

[Judah]

"-I appreciate and understand this point. However, isnt it all too convenient to "not scratch beneath the surface" sort of speak. We know the science of the world, but do want to know "who" is behind the science.

I guess both are convenient and self-serving.

Nobody's not scratching beneath the surface (or something!)...it's the methodology, i suppose, that's at the heart of the God-Not-God debates.

Sometimes wanting to know "who" is behind the science becomes biased when people assume there's gotta be a "who."

In the end, many people find it easy to end the discussion by saying that it's all about faith (i'm not saying you, swissair): "It's beyond science to be able to prove or disprove the idea of God...and, really, you don't need to go there. Either you have faith or you don't."

Ah, but who wants to go there right now (i.e. faith vs science)?

 

[Irvine511]

Thanks for sharing that. What about the atheists in the hizzous? What, if any, is the purpose to life from your atheistic perspective? I'm sincerely wanting to understand your viewpoint. klink, A.W. Irvine?

that's a hard one. i don't know anymore. i'm also not an atheist -- i'm an agonstic. so God is really incidental to what i'm about to write.

i used to think that the purpose of life was a journey of self-discovery, to find a way to throughly express yourself so that you leave a mark in some small way, but that "mark" (whatever it might be) would never have been there had you not existed. you could call it self-actualization -- coming to understand your unique worth to the world.

lately, as i've grown up and watched so many beliefs crumble before me, i'm beginning to think of life as more something to be survived. i know there are things i'm looking for -- understanding, insight, explanations, etc. but i don't know that those are reallyl worthwhile endpoints, since the journey and the process is what matters.

i suppose i now see the purpose of life as something of a challenge, to do the best you can with what you've been given. and also something of obligation, to give back to those who gave to you. to live an ethical life as well, i think. and you really don't need God, let alone religion, to lead such a life.

but purpose is devoid of meaning. the post-modernist in me wants to say that there is no universal "meaning" -- that meaning is alll self-created, has no objective or universal components, essentially that "there's no there there." and i do think that's true. but perhaps the subjectivity of meaning is what's universal?

 

[annj]

though the persons quoted argument at the beginning this statment mentioned that people only want to believe in a God for some sort of comfort in the after life... Is it not a fact though that the worldwide and long time believe or need in some sort of God means there is some sort of spirituality already inbuilt in the majority of us?.. from the dawn of mankind people have taken a bit of wood or stone and start carving it and worshiping it claiming it is a God of some sort

People have turn to animals the stars and worship them for some sort of spiritual satisfaction....

why would evolution have such an inbuilt desire for a belief in some sort of God? if there is no such things and we are just a bunch of dna cells, whatever which gradually thrown together and developed for a little while then die?

why do people continually seem to search for the reason of their existence and purpose in life like no other animal in the planet?

and if the instinct to worship something higher than ourselves exists and seems to be a large part of being a human surely this is evidence there is a God or creator who built this into us?

It just would not make sense for evolution to be responsible for this fluke

He also mentioned that certain men of science were perscuted in the middle ages by the churches.. yet he failed to mention that those who tried to translate the bible to the ordinary people were also classed as heretics and put to death by the very same churches because of their love of Gods word.. they were also burnt and tortured,

would they sacrifice their lives so easily if their belief did not have a very powerful affect on their lives in some way when they read it?

So that it compelled them to carry out their translations knowing it could easily mean their death? so we today where ever we are can have a bible in our homes

 

[Irvine511]

because we fear death and the unknown. we cannot wrap our heads around the experience of death, nor life, really, so creation myths are established and worlds beyond this one are invented.

 

[coemgen]

Judah, thanks for the reply. I do want you to know, although we see things differently, I respect your view point.
From my perspective, and I know you've probably heard this before, but it really does take more faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian. Let's take a look at our own bodies for example (OK, I know that just sounded really weird. I hope nobody looked down on their lap or anything.) You have a mouth, right? It's a hole for food to go into, right? (among other things). Well, do you really think it's just by chance that their happens to be teeth in their too to help chew food up? The chances of something being formed like that on accident must be astronomical. But let's not stop there. There's taste buds on the tongue as well to enjoy foods and be able to differentiate between types of foods. So now it just so happens that we all happen to have mouths, teeth and a tongue with taste buds. Then there's the throat, where the food travels down to the stomach, where it's broken down. I know you know the rest, about how our bodies actually take nutrients out of the food for their own benefit, and then of course, the unfortunate part about the food leaving out body. I'd love to hear from a scientist the probability of our bodies just coming together and having that whole system in place AND functioning. To me, it sounds like it was designed. And that's not including sight, smell, touch, emotions, sex, etc. I don't mean this post to be demeaning in tone or anything. But think about it? Plus, back to the food thing, there just happens to be food on the Earth we find ourselves on for us to eat? Our bodies can't survive without it, but they're there. You know what I mean? To say our existence came to being all by accident or randomness is like throwing the pieces of a trillion piece jigsaw puzzle up in the air and watching it land all together. Actually, that's even a weak analogy.
Now, if there is a creator, what does that mean? WHY were we created? To me, you actually answered that question when you said Atheists are spiritual. That spiritual yearning you have (we all have) is, I believe, your yearning for a relationship with God. That's why we were created. Your admiration of the beauty in creation actually is a form of glorifying God. What do you think of this?

 

[Judah]

though the persons quoted argument at the beginning this statment mentioned that people only want to believe in a God for some sort of comfort in the after life...

why would evolution have such an inbuilt desire for a belief in some sort of God? if there is no such things and we are just a bunch of dna cells, whatever which gradually thrown together and developed for a little while then die?

why do people continually seem to search for the reason of their existence and purpose in life like no other animal in the planet?

and if the instinct to worship something higher than ourselves exists and seems to be a large part of being a human surely this is evidence there is a God or creator who built this into us?"

Good questions, annj. But, i see you conclude that there can only be one answer (i.e. "surely this is evidence there is a God.")

"Why do people continually seem to search for the reason of their existence...?"...one explanation would be because we/they have the ability. Why did these spiritual notions or abilities evolve in humans? I don't think we have the answers to the "why" they started (or maybe we do...uh, A_Wanderer?). But why have they remained part of our evolution? Possible answers could be that it's a survival instinct. Because our brains evolved to have self-awareness, we also evolved with the capacity to ask such existential questions, to wonder about our place in the universe, we needed answers. And, as a species, we are very answer-hunting...we do not like vacuums. Notions of God or gods or otherness to explain the unexplained are there because of a lack of other probable answers.

I don't know...could be thousands of reasons why we have this need for spirituality. But just because we have the need, doesn't mean the only answer is God.

 

[swissair135]

As a personal opinion, I find it hard to believe that we are result of many perfect coincidences. Somehow, humans are alive, they can think and enjoy their perfectly constructed bodies, yet believe that there is no reason behind it.

Lets examine the human body... if intelligent design has no merit, then how cna the human body not be "perceived" as intelligent. Think about it, there is a brain/organ for reproduction/stomach to digest/limbs/eyes to see.

Think of all the processes that a body has when it gets sick.etc

Everything about it implies design. As an anecdote, a friend of mine in Med.School told me the following recently "I am not religious, but the way the human body works, there had to be somebody who created it..the design is perfect"

 

[swissair135]

coemgen,

I enjoyed your latest point, it exemplifies a lot of what I think as well.

Here is another question

-isnt it convenient that there is a thin gaseous layer in the atmosphere, the protects us from the deadly ultraviolet rays from the sun, and the vacuum of space.

-If there is no intelligent design, then how does the earth systematically rotate on schedule everyday, and how does the earth tilt, consistently within the schedule of a calendar, to have seasons such as winter and summer.

I fully acknowledge that these are not proofs for the existance of god, under the current scientific method. But I do believe that this may urge us to "scratch beneath the surface".

 

[Judah]

Ah, the intelligent design argument. I, along with many others, find it weak.

There's a good read here...good discussion:
http://www.skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html

Just because the universe seems "too perfect" or "too special" (from a human point of view...whatever universal value "perfection" means), still doesn't mean it HAD to be designed.

What if our universe is just part of hundreds of trillions and zillions of other universes existing side by side (or in side by side dimensions/"membranes"/"branes" as some of the new theories say)? What if there are almost an infinite number of universes randomly coming into and going out of existence, all with their own special physics and qualities? Maybe some have the ability to have stars and then planet and maybe some don't. Maybe some are empty. Maybe some have their own race of beings that could even be God-like creatures? When you look at it that way, the fact that one of those universes end up having materials and physical laws that result in a planet like earth and a species like human beings isn't that extraordinary. It's all how you look at it.

I have a hard time with the argument: "look around...there's perfection all around; you can't explain this as just a coincidence; you can ONLY explain it as God." (Bono says the same thing in the HTDAAB delux-edition book.)

With all that said, if it's the case that there are an infinite number of universes, hell, why can't we have a universe that was created with a God, one who then created all the stars and planets and has the power to control its universe. I guess we can. But i'll wait for more proof.

Or, if there's just the one universe (ours), maybe it's the fact that it was created by a God that committed suicide. Blowed himself up real good. The suicide was the first cause...the big bang. We live because of His sacrificing energy. But i'll wait for more proof.

 

[Judah]

Also, many could make a good point of saying that the universe really isn't that perfect.

Materials break down. Everything tends toward entropy. We die. Stars die.

Doesn't sound that perfect to me.

 

[annj]

With all that said, if it's the case that there are an infinite number of universes, hell, why can't we have a universe that was created with a God, one who then created all the stars and planets and has the power to control its universe. I guess we can. But i'll wait for more proof.

What kind of proof would you be looking for exactly? not being funny or anything.. just that I was an aethist and thought that the belief in God and religion was dumb because people couldnt handle the fact that they died just like it has been stated here and that was the end of it ...and like you I wanted more proof and found it..

not that you might even agree with the same conclusion I reached after my investigation into this, so I am not going to go over it here cos it would take forever *lol*

but I am just curious as what you consider proof of the existence of God and a creator?

 

[Judah]

Good question re: proof.

I don't know how you answer "what kind of proof."

I suppose i could get very specific, demand that this God come to me right now in front of me right now and, um, reassemble Kurt Cobain and John Lennon and my father right here in my room, and make them jam (my father was a sitarist!)

That could be a start, i suppose. That would give me a good start.

Or maybe the God could come and show me a PowerPoint presentation that explains the whole of existence and it makes perfect sense...explain the science of it, the why of it, the history of everything.

I know, i know...many will say this has already been done and the answers are there and that the only reason i don't see them is because i choose not to see them.

But really...that reassembling Cobain, Lennon and daddy Judah would be a neat trick!

[Ok, this discussion is getting kind of first-year university. A_Wanderer, we need you back in here with your high-falutin' ideas!]

 

[deep]

Also, many could make a good point of saying that the universe really isn't that perfect.

Why the leap year?

God couldn't do the math?


or he wanted to create controversy

Because he did not have cable.

 

[coemgen]

Irvine — thanks for responding as well. You said that you know see life as something to be survived. Honestly, that saddens me to hear that that's how you view life. (I mean that sincerely.) I commend you for seeking understanding, insight, explanations and all that, and for taking on the challenges of life. And I know you have a good heart because you seek to give back and help people and live an ethical life. I think you're doing so more than most. But you said you don't really need God to lead such a life. Maybe this is true to some degree. But consider this – where does morality come from? Where does this yard stick of what's good and what's not come from? Why is it ideal to seek what's good?
I know you believe there's a God, and I think that's totally cool. I challenge you (as well as everyone else) when your lying in bed tonight to talk to him. (I know this will be easier for those who actually BELIEVE in God.) He wants to hear from you. Bono once said "All God wants is a willing heart and for us to call out to him." I couldn't agree more. I fully believe, if you do this with all your heart, you'll begin to see life as more than just surviving. I'm praying for you buddy.

 

[A_Wanderer]

This thread has grown a lot.

The only point I would like to add is in regards to the "perfection" that is the human being.

All of the things that are mentioned, circulatory system, brain, heart, lungs etc. Don't other animals have these organs? If you take a monkey and you not find the same pieces? Likewise with a dog, rat or frog? These things are incrediable but you are looking at a finished product of evolution you do not look at the 3.5 billion years of life that went before or the very minor changes over that time that have added up in that time. All the biological functions from the feedback mechanisms that regulate some hormones to the chemical pumps that maintain balance within your cells exist in other life forms and you can work your way backwards to find common ancestry. Taken to the extreme this is a model that shows microbes to man, but you also have to understand that it is like

anaerobic heterotrophic microbe to anaerobic autotrophic microbe to photosynthetic microbe etc.etc. etc. for a billion more species in between.

But consider this – where does morality come from?

Morality is for the most part an aspect of human society, it provides a framework for social interactions which can be beneficial for clans of humans when hunting or interacting. I also think that morality can be derived through logical axioms and that is why across most cultures there are common threads, i.e. cold blooded murder is usually looked upon badly.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

i suppose i now see the purpose of life as something of a challenge, to do the best you can with what you've been given. and also something of obligation, to give back to those who gave to you. to live an ethical life as well, i think.

I think that's a good response, actually. It hits home to me.

 

[coemgen]

Judah, the Cobain/Lennon thing would be pretty freaking cool. I would like God to bring back Jeff Buckley myself. Heck, I'd like him to do a lot of things, but there's a small problem. He's God, and I'm just a pesky human. He's holy, and I'm not. He's all knowing, and I'm an "intellectual tortoise." He's loving and I'm only that way some of the time. He's always existed and I was only created 27 years ago. He's all powerful, and I can't hold either of my own sons for too long without getting tired. My point is he's in control. He has a plan. Jeff Buckley coming back may please me and even a ton of other people, but it's not in line with his plan. I'm sure you were joking with your comment, but I'm still rambling anyway. I don't need God to do something outrageous for me to know he exists. He's changed my life completely, as well as my wife's and many other people I know or have heard of. My mom smoked for decades and tried everything to quit. As a Christian, she finally realized she just needed to pray. She did, and she hasn't smoked for years. That's proof to me. My wife grew up in an abusive home, was molested, had an abortion, and has been raped. She also saw life as something to just survive. However, God's revealed his perfect love to her that even I can't give her and she can actually look in the mirror and see something beautiful. That's another God sighting for me. I just heard a guy from church share his story the other day about how when he first became successful as a lawyer, he got into cocaine. He was addicted to it. It destroyed his life. He believed in a God, and one day fell to his knees in helplessness. He later asked God for forgiveness through Christ, sought God's will for his life and now he can't wait to tell you about Christ's love. I know us Christians sometimes sound like we're Star Trek fans at a Star Trek convention or something, but this is real stuff. This goes above science and human logic. If you honestly want proof of God, ask him to reveal himself to you in HIS own way. I promise he will.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Which raises the deeper question is God an outside force or is faith and God a part of our minds? Having strong faith can certainly be an advantage in survival, go furthur than you could otherwise for instance.

 

[coemgen]

A.W., you're right on man. Monkeys, dogs, rats and frogs have brains, hearts and lungs!! As a Christian, I'm with you on this one. : ) (I'm just teasing you by the way, not attempting to urinate you off. I honestly respect your opinion and can tell that you're an intelligent person.)
If you want to play the evolution card, consider this: all these parts, the brain, heart, lungs, circulatory system, etc., had to have been in the first "humans" or animals or whatever anyway. So really, you don't have much of an argument in bringing up evolution. The first beings on Earth still had to have food and it just so happens, it was right there on Earth for them to eat and enjoy! If there was no creator behind all of this, even with evolution in place, there still would've had to have been a proverbial jigsaw puzzle thrown up in the air and it still would've had to land perfectly in place. In fact, if you want to include evolution, I would argue that puzzle would have even more pieces in it than the one without evolution.

As far as the morality thing, you didn't really answer the question. Why is it there? Why do we seek to be moral beings? If there's a basic right and wrong that humans agree on, it must be there for a reason too.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I think there are principles of both evolution and creation that could coexist.

 

[coemgen]

God's an outside force. i.e. creation. Also, he answers prayers specifically. Not all prayers that way, but he has done so none the less. Also, I have a relationship with him. I know that sounds hokey to those who don't believe in him, but it's true.