Ask the peace-loving, friendly Israeli Jew.....

[AchtungBono]

Well, I've seen these threads on FYM so I decided to jump on the bandwagon and offer myself to any member who has any questions about my country and/or my religion.

I'm sure you guys sometimes watch the news and wonder if what you're seeing is the whole story - so I'm going to let you ask whatever you want and I will answer to the best of my abilities.

So...fire away....

 

[financeguy]

How would you rate your country from a religious pluralism point of view i.e. separation of church and state?

 

[BVS]

Well I know that you feel that America has too much freedom of speech, so I ask where do you or would you draw the line?

 

[AchtungBono]

How would you rate your country from a religious pluralism point of view i.e. separation of church and state?

Because our statehood was based on our religion (i.e. a Jewish state), many laws of the land have biblical origins.

For instance, our work week is either 5 days or six days (with Friday being a half day). Offices and places of business close down for the Sabbath from Friday afternoon till Saturday night.

Exceptions to this rule are bars, pubs, night clubs, etc.

As for pluralism:
The prevailing religious law in Israel is according to the Orthodox stream of Judaism, with very little leniency on the part of the Rabbinate (the Jewish version of the supreme court) in cases of other streams - the Conservative and Reform.

All aspects of Jewish life (i.e., marriage, birth, death) are according to the orthodox stream of Judaism. This sometimes poses a big problem for secular Jews who don't wish to follow the religious rites in their daily lives. For instance, only marriages performed by an orthodox Rabbi are recognized by the state. Israeli civil law allows for civil marriages, however these unions are not recognized for various purposes - which is a shame.

In the Israeli school system, there are secular schools and religious schools. The religious schools open the day with the morning prayer and place a large emphasis on bible studies in the curriculum(sp?), and the secular schools have a regular curriculum including math, history, physics, English, computers, etc.

Because the laws of the land go according to the orthodox stream of Judaism, many non-religious Jews find themselves "forced" to obey religious laws even though they don't want to.

All the above notwithstanding, the rabbis and secular leaders have reached an "understanding" in some religious matters - leaving it to the discretion of some businesses on if they want to stay open on the Sabbath. However, if a restaurant is open on the Sabbath, it is classified as being "non-Kosher" (even if they serve kosher food).

The rabbis don't interfere with day-to-day business such as pubs, clubs, etc. They are very much aware that the majority of Israelis don't observe the Sabbath and/or the religious laws.

Another issue which has been in and out of the public eye is "The law of return". This is a law that states that any Jew in the world has the right to immigrate to Israel and automatically receives Israeli citizenship. This law defines "who is a Jew?" by two criteria:
1. The person was born to a Jewish mother.
2. The person converted to Judaism by an orthodox rabbi.

I hope this answered your question. Please feel free to ask if you need further clarification.

 

[financeguy]

Thanks for response.

Your post largely addresses the position of secular Jews. How are the rights of Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc safeguarded?

 

[AchtungBono]

Well I know that you feel that America has too much freedom of speech, so I ask where do you or would you draw the line?

Thanks for your question BonoVoxSupastar.....

I would draw the line at inflammatory remarks made with the specific purpose to offend and slander - much like Harry Belafonte saying that George Bush is "The world's biggest terrorist" or the teenager who wore a t-shirt with Bush's picture with the word "Terrorist" written under it.

Also, I cite the case of Prof. Ward Churchill who compared the 9/11 victims to Nazis who got what they deserved.

I find a big difference between a legitimate protest - for instance, standing outside the white house with a sign that says "Stop the war/killing/slaughter/..." whatever, and standing outside the white house and burning George Bush in effigy (not that it happened, I'm just citing examples).

As I understand, the first amendment gives the people the right to speak out their opinions, but some take it too far and abuse that right by slandering other people. Surely there are other ways to protest George Bush's policies than labelling him a "terrorist".

So, in short, I respect any person's right to express his/her opinion BUT I would hope that they would use good judgement in whether or not their words would cause great harm and offence to the other person.

 

[AchtungBono]

Thanks for response.

Your post largely addresses the position of secular Jews. How are the rights of Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc safeguarded?

In the Israeli declaration of independence signed on May 15th, 1948, it says specifically that Israel welcomes and respects the other religions in the country.

There are several non-Jewish organizations in Israel that enjoy good relations with the Israeli government. For instance, there is the Christian embassy in Jerusalem and the Islamic Waqf (which has control over the temple mount in Jerusalem), to name a few.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and the center of Judaism. When the city was unified in 1967 we stayed true to our declaration and kept all the other religious institutions intact out of respect for them. We acknowledge that Jerusalem is an important religious center for Muslims and Christians and we act accordingly.

The other religions freely practice their rites without any interference from Israel. A good example of this is the annual midnight mass in Bethlehem on Christmas and the Palm Sunday procession on Easter in Jerusalem.

There are special commitees set up in order to look into different aspects of the other religions and Israel makes very sure not to disturb the delicate balance and harmony that prevails between everyone.

As for athiests, as I mentioned in my previous post, if a person wants to get married, divorced, etc., he must go according to the orthodox rites of Judaism if he wants his marriage (especially his children) recognized by the state.

I'll give you another example: Israel has a flourishing gay community and there are two festivals which are celebrated each year. The annual "Gay pride" parade and the "Love Parade" (much like the one held in Germany and around the world). These parades are held in Tel-Aviv only. An attempt to hold a "Gay pride" parade in Jerusalem was met with fierce resistance from the orthodox rabbis because of the religious character of Jerusalem (and, of course, the bible forbids homosexuality).

So for athiests, there is a civil rights movement in Israel that helps protect their rights against religious "coersion".

 

[Sherry Darling]

Have you seen Munich? If so, what did you think?

 

[VertigoGal]

Another issue which has been in and out of the public eye is "The law of return". This is a law that states that any Jew in the world has the right to immigrate to Israel and automatically receives Israeli citizenship. This law defines "who is a Jew?" by two criteria:
1. The person was born to a Jewish mother.
2. The person converted to Judaism by an orthodox rabbi.

Just hypothetically, what if this person was born to a Jewish mother who had been converted from Christianity by a reform rabbi and later converted back to Christianity?



Thanks for all the info so far, btw, I will try to think of a better question later...

 

[financeguy]

In the Israeli declaration of independence signed on May 15th, 1948, it says specifically that Israel welcomes and respects the other religions in the country.

There are several non-Jewish organizations in Israel that enjoy good relations with the Israeli government. For instance, there is the Christian embassy in Jerusalem and the Islamic Waqf (which has control over the temple mount in Jerusalem), to name a few.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and the center of Judaism. When the city was unified in 1967 we stayed true to our declaration and kept all the other religious institutions intact out of respect for them. We acknowledge that Jerusalem is an important religious center for Muslims and Christians and we act accordingly.

The other religions freely practice their rites without any interference from Israel. A good example of this is the annual midnight mass in Bethlehem on Christmas and the Palm Sunday procession on Easter in Jerusalem.

There are special commitees set up in order to look into different aspects of the other religions and Israel makes very sure not to disturb the delicate balance and harmony that prevails between everyone.

As for athiests, as I mentioned in my previous post, if a person wants to get married, divorced, etc., he must go according to the orthodox rites of Judaism if he wants his marriage (especially his children) recognized by the state.

I'll give you another example: Israel has a flourishing gay community and there are two festivals which are celebrated each year. The annual "Gay pride" parade and the "Love Parade" (much like the one held in Germany and around the world). These parades are held in Tel-Aviv only. An attempt to hold a "Gay pride" parade in Jerusalem was met with fierce resistance from the orthodox rabbis because of the religious character of Jerusalem (and, of course, the bible forbids homosexuality).

So for athiests, there is a civil rights movement in Israel that helps protect their rights against religious "coersion".

Thank you for your response.

I have to say I am a little bit concerned to hear that non-believers can't get married in the eyes of the state.

Having said based on what I have read the protections afforded to non-Jews in Israel are a lot better than those afforded to non-Muslims in most Muslim countries.

 

[yolland]

^ I believe it's the case (though I could certainly be wrong) that quite a few Israelis who don't want to go through the Orthodox marriage procedures, for whatever reasons, travel outside of Israel to get a civil marriage, which *I think?* is recognized by the state (though not by the rabbinate of course).

The prevailing religious law in Israel is according to the Orthodox stream of Judaism, with very little leniency on the part of the Rabbinate (the Jewish version of the supreme court) in cases of other streams - the Conservative and Reform.

At the risk of being nosy, where if anywhere do you fall on this spectrum?

 

[anitram]

How do you feel about the Jewish diaspora, particularly the Americans?

I ask because I work with quite a few Israeli Jews and they hold the American Jews in the highest contempt for various things, like dictating policy via a remote control and pushing a hardline agenda without having to live with the actual consequences day-to-day.

 

[Irvine511]

what do you think individual israeli citizens can do in their day-to-day lives to make the region more peaceful?

what, if any, legal rights do gay couples have?

 

[AchtungBono]

Have you seen Munich? If so, what did you think?

I have not seen the movie yet but I remember watching the events unfold as they happened.

I was 12 years old in 1972 when Israel suffered through two major terrorist attacks - the first one was in May (I believe) when a Japanese terrorist named Kozo Akamoto opened fire inside the terminal at Lod (later renamed Ben-Gurion) airport, killing over 20 people.
Kozo Akamoto was later released in one of Israel's controversial prisoner exchange deals.

Later that year, in September, the Munich attack took place. I remember watching the events unfold and felt utter shock and horror when the hostages were murdered. The entire country was sent into a tailspin.

I will read some more about about this event before I see the movie and then I will give you an educated reply.

 

[AchtungBono]

Just hypothetically, what if this person was born to a Jewish mother who had been converted from Christianity by a reform rabbi and later converted back to Christianity?



Thanks for all the info so far, btw, I will try to think of a better question later...

In any case, the person in question would not be recognized by the Rabbinate as being Jewish because the mother was converted by a Reform Rabbi and not an orthodox rabbi.

So to answer your question, this particular person is not considered Jewish by the Jewish laws of the state, unless the mother had been converted again by an orthodox rabbi.

 

[AchtungBono]

^ I believe it's the case (though I could certainly be wrong) that quite a few Israelis who don't want to go through the Orthodox marriage procedures, for whatever reasons, travel outside of Israel to get a civil marriage, which *I think?* is recognized by the state (though not by the rabbinate of course).


At the risk of being nosy, where if anywhere do you fall on this spectrum?

Yes it's true. Many secular Israelis go through civil marriages or even travel outside Israel to get married (to Cyprus for example).

There is a term in Jewish law called: "Non-Marriagable" (for the lack of a better term). This refers to several groups within the population who are limited when it comes to marriage.

For example:
1. People who are designated "Kohanim" (descendants of the High Priests of Israel) are forbidden from marrying a divorced woman.

2. People considered "Bastards" (literally): Born out of wedlock (and other cases).

3. A Jewish man/woman who wish to marry outside the faith.

I know that all of this sounds very archaic and outdated, but there is a reason behind all these strict rules. I believe that the goal is to preserve the Jewish way of life and to prevent the dwindling of the Jewish population through assimilation and mixed marriages.

My view on all of this is very complex. On the one hand, I really don't believe in forcing people to follow rules they don't believe in but on the other hand I am fearful that Israel will lose its Jewish character by gradually fading out the Jewish laws in favour of secular ones.

 

[AchtungBono]

How do you feel about the Jewish diaspora, particularly the Americans?

I ask because I work with quite a few Israeli Jews and they hold the American Jews in the highest contempt for various things, like dictating policy via a remote control and pushing a hardline agenda without having to live with the actual consequences day-to-day.

For one thing, I certainly don't hold American Jews in contempt. I believe they have a right to express their opinion on issues concerning Israel because, after all, it is their spiritual home too.

My answer to your question is in the second part of it:
You really have to live here a long time to appreciate the day-to-day struggle in Israel.
Don't get me wrong, Israel in itself is a beautiful country with really beautiful people, but because the security situation is so unstable - especially now that Hamas has won the Palestinian elections - we are the only ones who can understand our needs.

 

[AchtungBono]

what do you think individual israeli citizens can do in their day-to-day lives to make the region more peaceful?

what, if any, legal rights do gay couples have?

Excellent questions....thank you.

To the first one:
I've always maintained that its the LEADERS that are screwed up and not the people. I honestly believe that the average Palestinian and/or Israeli is so tired of all the political bullshit and, in a perfect world, wouldn't hesitate for a second to sit down with each other over a nice felafel and smoke a Nargilla pipe and just be good neighbors.

The late "self-help" guru, Leo Buscaglia, mentioned something called "The rule of 250". This basically says that the average person interacts with approximately 250 people a day on various levels - including family and friends. Its very similar to the premise of the movie "Pay it forward", meaning that every good deed you do for someone will be forwarded by that person to someone else, and so on.....

Personally, in my day-to-day activities, I always have a smile on my face, greet everyone with a cheery 'Good morning' - whether its to the cab driver who takes me to the train station in the morning or the waitress who serves me when I go out with friends. A smile and cherry attitude goes a very long way and I've found that even the hardest people to please can be mellowed-out by seeing a friendly face.

Another way to make this region a more peaceful one is through the process of education. The Palestinian children are taught from a very early age that Jews in general, and Israel in particular, are sworn enemies who must be wiped off the face of the earth. Many is the time that we've seen pictures of little children dressed up as miniature suicide bombers with Hamas headbands. This disgusts and outrages me - you would NEVER see such spectacles among the Israelis. I believe that Palestinian teachers should be teaching the children not how to continue the cycle of violence but rather how to STOP it.

I am an eternal optimist and believe that eventually someone will wise up and realize that talking has a better effect than shooting.



As for the issue of gay rights:
As mentioned in an earlier reply, we have a large gay and lesbian community and there is an organization that protects their rights as far as discrimination goes.
Only recently have the Israeli legislators started addressing the issue of gay rights within the context of civil unions, etc. We still have a way to go but we're getting there.

 

[AchtungBono]

*bumping for anyone who missed this the first time*