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Old 01-31-2005, 07:48 PM   #76
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Even if Joseph Smith's teaching contradict the Bible?
Maybe my comments above skirted this comment. Basically, where the Church of Jesus Christ diverges from other Christian faiths is that we believe in continued revelation. We don't believe that the Bible is the ONLY way in which we can hear the word of God. We believe that Christ stands at the head of his church and that he speaks his will through His prophets and apostles.

Are there any particular teachings of Joseph Smith that you see as contradictory to the Bible? I don't mean this as a challenge, it's just that as a lifelong member I'm not always aware of all of the disconcerting or contradictory beliefs of our church when compared to others. The biggies like continued revelation, additional scripture and polygamy seem to be the most troublesome. Not saying those are the only ones, but what are some of the others you are thinking of?
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Old 02-01-2005, 01:11 PM   #77
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U2utah2U and McPhisto, I know my first two questions seemed a bit pushy, and I didn't mean them to come across that way. You guys seem like nice people and I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, just kind of throwing it out there. I know many people with ties to the LDS church, including a nice couple that lives next door to my wife and I and my sister's fiance, who happens to not believe the faith anymore. I've read a lot on the faith and find it interesting. There are a lot of good things about it — I particularly like your missionary system. The people of the mormon faith whom I've met or come across have been nothing but nice, and I know they're passionate about their faith. However, they're being misled. The Mormon faith looks and sounds like Christianity at first, but if you dig a little deeper, you'll find it's not even close. It twists the meaning and completely goes against Christianity in many cases. I don't mean to bash the faith, but I do feel it's important to discuss the differences between Christianity and the LDS church. This is after all, the free your mind thread. In matters dealing with eternity, we must be careful and deal with truth.

The main difference between the two faiths, Christianity and Mormonism, is their plans of salvation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as you guys prefer to be called, teach through Christ's death AND through being obedient to certain principles, we are saved. The Mormon plan of salvation is clearly based on doing certain good works. Basically, if you follow certain laws, keep certain ordinances then salvation is yours. This goes totally against the Bible. Salvation is completely and solely from Christ alone. Salvation is a free gift from God apart from any good work we might be able to do.
Titus 3:5 says "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." And Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible is pretty clear that it's not up to us, it's up to Christ. Think about it —*if someone gave you a gift for your birthday, you would just accept it and say thanks, right? It's the same way with God's gift of salvation. If someone gave you a birthday gift, you wouldn't accept it, say thanks, and then do good things for them or try to work to earn it would you? It wouldn't truly be a gift then, you know?

As far as the practice of baptizing the dead that was mentioned in an earlier post, you're right — it is an often misinterpreted verse. The verse that Mormons claim supports the practice, 1 Corinthians 15:29, states "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"
When reading the Bible, it's important to read it carefully and not take parts out of context and apply you're own meaning to it. In this case, it's also important to know that Corinth, back in the day, was kind of like Las Vegas. It's often referred to as "crazy Corinth" because of the immorality of its people and the presence of many cults. There's even a Greek verb "to Corinthianize" that means to live shamelessly and immorally. Paul went there knowing it'd be his most difficult city to start a church, but it was a strategic place to go in spreading the Gospel. The church Paul planted there ended up being one of the largest of its time, but later reports Paul received showed the church was too easily influenced by it's city's crazy heritage and it had incorporated a number of spiritually incorrect practices. 1 Corinthians is simply Paul's letter to the church attempting to shed light on such practices and correct them. He corrects them on everything from speaking in tongues, prophecy and orderly worship to sexual morality issues. With this understanding in mind, it's no surprise they baptized the dead. Paul brings up this practice, almost in passing, in his arguments substantiating the resurrection of the dead. Nowhere in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians, does Paul or anyone else, approve this practice. Yet, the Mormons practice it regularly.
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Old 02-01-2005, 01:16 PM   #78
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..sure, blamed it all on the Greeks in Corinth

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Old 02-01-2005, 01:18 PM   #79
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OK diamond, I checked out your site, is that you carrying Bono?!?!
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Old 02-01-2005, 01:43 PM   #80
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i thought it was the brother of Jesus
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Old 02-01-2005, 01:56 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
U2utah2U and McPhisto, I know my first two questions seemed a bit pushy, and I didn't mean them to come across that way. You guys seem like nice people and I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, just kind of throwing it out there. I know many people with ties to the LDS church, including a nice couple that lives next door to my wife and I and my sister's fiance, who happens to not believe the faith anymore. I've read a lot on the faith and find it interesting. There are a lot of good things about it — I particularly like your missionary system. The people of the mormon faith whom I've met or come across have been nothing but nice, and I know they're passionate about their faith. However, they're being misled. The Mormon faith looks and sounds like Christianity at first, but if you dig a little deeper, you'll find it's not even close. It twists the meaning and completely goes against Christianity in many cases. I don't mean to bash the faith, but I do feel it's important to discuss the differences between Christianity and the LDS church. This is after all, the free your mind thread. In matters dealing with eternity, we must be careful and deal with truth.

The main difference between the two faiths, Christianity and Mormonism, is their plans of salvation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as you guys prefer to be called, teach through Christ's death AND through being obedient to certain principles, we are saved. The Mormon plan of salvation is clearly based on doing certain good works. Basically, if you follow certain laws, keep certain ordinances then salvation is yours. This goes totally against the Bible. Salvation is completely and solely from Christ alone. Salvation is a free gift from God apart from any good work we might be able to do.
Titus 3:5 says "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." And Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible is pretty clear that it's not up to us, it's up to Christ. Think about it —*if someone gave you a gift for your birthday, you would just accept it and say thanks, right? It's the same way with God's gift of salvation. If someone gave you a birthday gift, you wouldn't accept it, say thanks, and then do good things for them or try to work to earn it would you? It wouldn't truly be a gift then, you know?

As far as the practice of baptizing the dead that was mentioned in an earlier post, you're right — it is an often misinterpreted verse. The verse that Mormons claim supports the practice, 1 Corinthians 15:29, states "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"
When reading the Bible, it's important to read it carefully and not take parts out of context and apply you're own meaning to it. In this case, it's also important to know that Corinth, back in the day, was kind of like Las Vegas. It's often referred to as "crazy Corinth" because of the immorality of its people and the presence of many cults. There's even a Greek verb "to Corinthianize" that means to live shamelessly and immorally. Paul went there knowing it'd be his most difficult city to start a church, but it was a strategic place to go in spreading the Gospel. The church Paul planted there ended up being one of the largest of its time, but later reports Paul received showed the church was too easily influenced by it's city's crazy heritage and it had incorporated a number of spiritually incorrect practices. 1 Corinthians is simply Paul's letter to the church attempting to shed light on such practices and correct them. He corrects them on everything from speaking in tongues, prophecy and orderly worship to sexual morality issues. With this understanding in mind, it's no surprise they baptized the dead. Paul brings up this practice, almost in passing, in his arguments substantiating the resurrection of the dead. Nowhere in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians, does Paul or anyone else, approve this practice. Yet, the Mormons practice it regularly.
Ok, Ok, Ok you got us, our church is false, there is no way to hide now, you discovered it, Nope. Right now I have to go to a basketball game, but I will be back to respond to you. I have a book (that I need to find) that talks about christianity, and salvation, and how we gain our slavation, with scriptual proof, I will have to go back and review it, but believe me I have heard these kind statements many times! And on the subject of Baptisms for the dead, I believe you are mistaken as there are amny more valid scriptures that prove that this was a practice.( for example, where was Jesus Christs spirit during those three days after his death). I will get back with you on all of these, but I need to go.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:06 PM   #82
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I'd love to know an explanation for the Book of Mormon's "racism," as it puts a premium on being "white" and sees dark skin as a "punishment by God."

Quote:
1 Nephi 11:8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

1 Nephi 11:13 And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

2 Nephi 5:21 For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

2 Nephi 30:6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure white and a delightsome people.

Jacob 3:8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.

Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

Mormon 5:15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:09 PM   #83
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that's easy Melon, the Nephites were jealous.
they didn't have tanning beds back then

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Old 02-01-2005, 02:13 PM   #84
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Originally posted by coemgen
The Mormon plan of salvation is clearly based on doing certain good works. Basically, if you follow certain laws, keep certain ordinances then salvation is yours. This goes totally against the Bible.
This, of course, is the Protestant view as per Martin Luther. However, I tend to see that as "willful blindness."

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works." -- James 2:14-18

The passage generally says that salvation is a combination of faith and good works, not one or the other. Martin Luther's condemnation of "good works" was out of the practice of selling indulgences to get into heaven, despite the buyers living otherwise evil lives. I would have argued, though, that they were not good works to begin with.

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Old 02-01-2005, 02:31 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


This, of course, is the Protestant view as per Martin Luther. However, I tend to see that as "willful blindness."

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works." -- James 2:14-18

The passage generally says that salvation is a combination of faith and good works, not one or the other. Martin Luther's condemnation of "good works" was out of the practice of selling indulgences to get into heaven, despite the buyers living otherwise evil lives. I would have argued, though, that they were not good works to begin with.

Melon
Look at the example of "works" in James. Abraham offering Isaac.

Works means acting in faith - not just doing "dood deeds".

The combination interpretation of James directly conflicts with Ephesians.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:44 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Works means acting in faith - not just doing "good deeds".
Exactly. But just having faith is not enough, according to James.

Quote:
The combination interpretation of James directly conflicts with Ephesians.
Well, knowing how the New Testament was written helps solve this conflict and makes "Biblical fundamentalism" difficult.

The Gospel of Matthew and the Book of James are Jewish Christian in origin. Jewish Christians believed that Christians should adhere fully to Jewish laws, including the full Mosaic Law. Thus, it is not surprising that James would put a dual emphasis on faith and good works. St. Paul, though, led a competing Gentile Christian sect that believed that Jesus now made all those laws void, replaced with Jesus' commandment: "Love one another." Hence, it is no surprise that Pauline epistles would put an emphasis on faith and faith alone.

Considering the conflict that existed between Jewish and Gentile Christians both Biblically and historically, I believe it to be sloppy to mix their theology together as most people do (such as using the Gospel of Matthew to justify "the Law," while also using Pauline epistles to justify faith versus good works). It was never intended to be that way.

So here's the question for everyone to ask themselves: are you a Jewish Christian or a Gentile Christian? That's probably for a different thread, and I don't wish to derail this one.

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Old 02-01-2005, 02:47 PM   #87
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Actually, Melon has a good point there about racism. African Americans were long considered a "cursed race" by the Mormons, but a recent revelation (how convenient) has permitted black males to become priests. Not too many blacks have been attracted to Mormonism though. I've read in many places that previous Mormon missionaries promised "people of the brown race" that if they joined the church they would be white in the next life. I'm sorry, but that sounds a little hoaky to me.
McPhisto, I know this comes across as I'm attacking you, and I'm not. I'm just trying to get some meaningful dialogue going here with facts. That's why we're in this forum — to get to the truth of issues. I'd love to hear what your book says.
In regards to baptizing the dead you asked where Christ's spirit went when he died, can you tell me more about how that deals with baptizing the dead?

Melon, on your point about the verses from James, I would agree with nb. That's the verse that Catholics go by too. Faith without works is dead. This is true, but we're not saved by works. That's why Christ died in the first place! We can't do anything to be holy again in the sight of God. He's a holy God, and we're sinful humans. That's why Christ died in our place and took the penalty of death that we all deserve — so by his grace, we can be saved. The works of faith are actually the result of coming to the faith, and accepting Christ. With the Holy Spirit within us, we are called to be obedient, but we're saved at the time we accept Christ.
Romans 10:8-13 says "But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:53 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Melon, on your point about the verses from James, I would agree with nb. That's the verse that Catholics go by too. Faith without works is dead. This is true, but we're not saved by works. That's why Christ died in the first place!
Again, I see you quote from a Pauline epistle (Romans). I don't particularly judge one belief over the other; but I do tend to dislike the mixing of Jewish Christian and Gentile Christian beliefs.

If it is truly faith and faith alone, I believe we should stop judging others so harshly by their actions/"works." Conventional Christianity does tend to be highly judgmental of others' "works," just as Jewish Christianity would have been. "Faith and faith alone," I feel, is not really done in practice.

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Old 02-01-2005, 02:55 PM   #89
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Acting in faith is an expression of our salvation (justification, specifically). Salvation has always been by faith, but our natural weakness demands concrete ways to "earn" it.

Abraham was saved by faith. The Hebrews wanted clear rules and regulations instead of living and acting in faith.

Mormonism takes this to a literal, legalistic extreme.
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Old 02-01-2005, 03:22 PM   #90
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Again, NB is right here Melon. (and somehow he's really good at saying it in as few words as possible.) The two views on salvation don't actually contradict each other, but complement each other. This is my own thought here, but it's almost like you could say works justify our faith, but we are justified by our faith alone. Does that make sense? Acting by faith is an expression of our faith, and that's what we're called to do throughout the New Testament. When James asks "can that faith save him?", he's saying 'is it a true faith if it doesn't include works?' Although this is a Mormon-specific thread, this little debate here is important. I'm expecting McPhisto to bring it up anyway after he gets his book.
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