nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
macphisto23 said:
In a very nice way, you've stated that only Mormons are worthy (thus, only worthy of eternal life) and the rest of us have suffered from "the Apostacy".
These teachings are inconsistent with the Bible.
Ask the Mormon
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In a very nice way, you've stated that only Mormons are worthy (thus, only worthy of eternal life) and the rest of us have suffered from "the Apostacy".
These teachings are inconsistent with the Bible.
It looks like McPhisto beat me again.
Any way, here is my crack at the questions. Again, I’m not the most versed in the details of the history of the church but hopefully my responses will be helpful.
-- FizzingWhizzbees (great name, btw) asked several questions that have been answered to some degree.
- I apologize that my comments on gender may have been confusing. I fully support and believe in the following statement made in “A Proclamation to the World: The Family”by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the church: “We […] solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.” (See full document: http://lds.org/languages/proclamations/family/start_here_0.pdf )
I don’t know if God chooses gender or how that works. I do believe homosexuality is a sin but I place it among other sexual sins as far as its severity. I don’t think homo is any worse than hetero outside of the bonds of marriage. I know that this is a very conservative view and not very popular in today’s world, but I think there are many Old and New Testament commandments that are secularly unpopular.
However, having said that, my personal views on whether or not a gay couple should enjoy the same civil liberties and insurance benefits as straight couples may be more liberal than the average Mormon. I have reservations about adoption of children by gay couples but I have the same reservations about adoption of children by single parents who simply do not want to get married. I am pro-family, which I know is usually a conservative term to disguise anti-gay sentiments. But, I honestly believe that there is a certain family dynamic that exists in a loving home run equally by a father and a mother that cannot be replaced. Of course, there are families where grandparents, single parents or other family members raise the children and that is just fine.
I cannot say whether or not an individual is born “gay” or “straight.” I do believe we are born with certain strengths and weaknesses. This life is a time of probation in which we rely on the Lord to overcome our weaknesses and magnify our strengths. Homosexuality is a weakness that can be overcome. However, I realize there are people that believe this is wrong just as strongly as I believe it is right. One of the true challenges of life is to learn to respect and love each other despite our differences. The greatest gift God has given his children is the gift to choose and I oppose measures that seek to take the freedom to choose away from others. That is why I have certain reservations when it comes to denying gay couples certain civil liberties. Any way, I hope that helps. Next question.
- What do you believe about members of other religions or those who don't believe in any religion? Do you believe yours is the only "true" religion?
We do claim that we are the only true and living church on the earth. The most direct answer I can give is that we believe the church Christ established during his ministry was lost. He did give the keys of authority to Peter but with the martyrdoms of the apostles, that collective authority was lost. We believe that a Restoration was needed. This is where Joseph Smith comes in. I won’t recount the whole story which you can find easily on other websites, but suffice it to say, we believe the priesthood authority, or right to act in God’s name, was restored to the earth through Joseph Smith. In addition, he translated ancient scriptures known as the Book of Mormon. This leads to your next question.
- Here's a quote from the website: "God commanded Lehi to lead a small group of people to the American continent. There they became a great civilization." What was the "great civilization" - is there any sort of evidence or proof of this or is it just accepted as a matter of faith?
Yes and yes. However, the end of the Book of Mormon there is a huge battle between the believers (the Nephites—named after one of Lehi’s sons) and warring faction known as the Lamanites (also named after Lehi’s son). This battle occurred circa AD 400 and resulted in the utter destruction of the Nephite civilization. However, there are many Mormon historians that believe that the entire Book of Mormon took place in the southern part of Mexico and the Yucatan Peninsula and that the Mayan civilization may be a remnant of the descendants of Lehi and his family. (The Aztecs don’t figure in because they arrived to Mexico long after the Book of Mormon ended.)
The Book of Mormon testifies of the visitation of Christ to the American continent after his ministry, crucifixion and resurrection in Jerusalem. He established his church here as well. Again, this is not supported doctrine of the church but many Mormons believe that this image of Christ was turned into Quetzalcoatl, the white bearded God the Aztecs believed Cortez embodied when he arrived in the early 16th century. Any way, I’m not expert on ancient Mexican civilization. You can find myriad books supporting and discrediting these theories.
Ultimately, the veracity of the Book of Mormon relies of faith. Sure, God could easily provide the church with hard archeological evidence but that still wouldn’t convince people that Jesus is the Christ. The Book of Mormon, while containing elements of history, is not an historical record. It is the spiritual record of some of the people that lived on the American continent. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to testify of the divine mission of Christ on this earth. It also shows us that God had prophets in the New World as well as in the Old World.
- Okay, there is a long and a short answer to family history. The short answer is that we believe that the family is the central unit in God’s plan of happiness for his children. (See the Proclamation to the World: The Family above). The long answer would require quite of bit of background that I would be happy to email to you if you are still interested. Family History plays an important role in the work we do in our temples. (Again, just to clarify—only worthy members are allowed in the temples which are not to be confused with our meeting houses [wards and stakes].)
- Will Christians who do not attend a Mormon church go to heaven?
This is a tricky question because like Fizz’s question above, there is a long and short answer. However we believe that there are certain ordinances that must be performed in order to fully accept the Atonement of Christ. These include baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, the endowment of certain blessings performed in the temple and a temple sealing (an eternal marriage also performed in the temple in conjunction with civil marriage.) In His infinite wisdom, God has developed a plan for people who never have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life. We believe that these ordinances can be performed on earth by proxy and those spirits that have passed on can choose to accept or reject these ordinances. This is much of the work that occurs in our temples and that is why we keep it sacred and only available to worthy members of the church. (That’s the short answer. Email or PM me if you want more info. This aspect of our religion is quite fascinating because there is New Testament evidence that it occurred in Christ’s church that not many churches know about. It is usually misinterpreted.)
This is also why you see such a strong missionary program in our church. We believe that everybody should have the opportunity to study these things out in their heart and mind, ask God if it is true and then act on that answer. Ultimately, Christ will judge each of us individually and decide whether or not we “get into heaven.” I don’t think anybody on this earth holds the right credentials to hand out eternal salvation or damnation. Salvation comes only through Christ, in Him and of Him. There is no other way. And yes, I believe there will be people in heaven that weren’t Mormons in this life and I also believe there will be Mormons that don’t make it into heaven. I don’t know if that fully answers your question.
- I am sorry to say I have heard Mormon children tell my kids and other kids that theirs is the only ‘true’ church and that everyone else is hell bound. Not saying this speak for everyone, of course.
As in any community, there are undoubtedly bigots, hypocrites and just plain mean people in the church. I really hope they are the extreme minority. I am sorry to hear that that happened to your children.
- “The Salamander”
I had vaguely heard about this theory before. Again, I’m not the most informed person when it comes to ambiguities surrounding the founding of our church. And as Macphisto pointed out, Joseph Smith was given the power to translate the ancient Nephite records which is now known as the Book of Mormon. I remember the Hoffmann bombings as a little boy. I should check out that book. It’s sounds fascinating.
And Diamond, what’s your background with Mormonism? You obviously know more about the religion than some members do. (You can email me directly if you wish. I’m just curious.)
- So, is it fair to say that the Holy Spirit confims the Book of Mormon as truth for you?
Yup. This is the promise of the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:3-5):
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not be true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Again, if anybody is interested in the Book of Mormon, you can either contact the church through mormon.org and get one for free, you can purchase the Doubleday edition at amazon.com, you can go to the church’s website lds.org (http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents) and read it there, or I’d be happy to send you a copy if you're interested.
Thanks everybody for your questions and comments. I also served a mission like macphisto, in Chile, and I have to tell you all, you are some of the most respective people I’ve met.
Any way, here is my crack at the questions. Again, I’m not the most versed in the details of the history of the church but hopefully my responses will be helpful.
-- FizzingWhizzbees (great name, btw) asked several questions that have been answered to some degree.
- I apologize that my comments on gender may have been confusing. I fully support and believe in the following statement made in “A Proclamation to the World: The Family”by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the church: “We […] solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.” (See full document: http://lds.org/languages/proclamations/family/start_here_0.pdf )
I don’t know if God chooses gender or how that works. I do believe homosexuality is a sin but I place it among other sexual sins as far as its severity. I don’t think homo is any worse than hetero outside of the bonds of marriage. I know that this is a very conservative view and not very popular in today’s world, but I think there are many Old and New Testament commandments that are secularly unpopular.
However, having said that, my personal views on whether or not a gay couple should enjoy the same civil liberties and insurance benefits as straight couples may be more liberal than the average Mormon. I have reservations about adoption of children by gay couples but I have the same reservations about adoption of children by single parents who simply do not want to get married. I am pro-family, which I know is usually a conservative term to disguise anti-gay sentiments. But, I honestly believe that there is a certain family dynamic that exists in a loving home run equally by a father and a mother that cannot be replaced. Of course, there are families where grandparents, single parents or other family members raise the children and that is just fine.
I cannot say whether or not an individual is born “gay” or “straight.” I do believe we are born with certain strengths and weaknesses. This life is a time of probation in which we rely on the Lord to overcome our weaknesses and magnify our strengths. Homosexuality is a weakness that can be overcome. However, I realize there are people that believe this is wrong just as strongly as I believe it is right. One of the true challenges of life is to learn to respect and love each other despite our differences. The greatest gift God has given his children is the gift to choose and I oppose measures that seek to take the freedom to choose away from others. That is why I have certain reservations when it comes to denying gay couples certain civil liberties. Any way, I hope that helps. Next question.
- What do you believe about members of other religions or those who don't believe in any religion? Do you believe yours is the only "true" religion?
We do claim that we are the only true and living church on the earth. The most direct answer I can give is that we believe the church Christ established during his ministry was lost. He did give the keys of authority to Peter but with the martyrdoms of the apostles, that collective authority was lost. We believe that a Restoration was needed. This is where Joseph Smith comes in. I won’t recount the whole story which you can find easily on other websites, but suffice it to say, we believe the priesthood authority, or right to act in God’s name, was restored to the earth through Joseph Smith. In addition, he translated ancient scriptures known as the Book of Mormon. This leads to your next question.
- Here's a quote from the website: "God commanded Lehi to lead a small group of people to the American continent. There they became a great civilization." What was the "great civilization" - is there any sort of evidence or proof of this or is it just accepted as a matter of faith?
Yes and yes. However, the end of the Book of Mormon there is a huge battle between the believers (the Nephites—named after one of Lehi’s sons) and warring faction known as the Lamanites (also named after Lehi’s son). This battle occurred circa AD 400 and resulted in the utter destruction of the Nephite civilization. However, there are many Mormon historians that believe that the entire Book of Mormon took place in the southern part of Mexico and the Yucatan Peninsula and that the Mayan civilization may be a remnant of the descendants of Lehi and his family. (The Aztecs don’t figure in because they arrived to Mexico long after the Book of Mormon ended.)
The Book of Mormon testifies of the visitation of Christ to the American continent after his ministry, crucifixion and resurrection in Jerusalem. He established his church here as well. Again, this is not supported doctrine of the church but many Mormons believe that this image of Christ was turned into Quetzalcoatl, the white bearded God the Aztecs believed Cortez embodied when he arrived in the early 16th century. Any way, I’m not expert on ancient Mexican civilization. You can find myriad books supporting and discrediting these theories.
Ultimately, the veracity of the Book of Mormon relies of faith. Sure, God could easily provide the church with hard archeological evidence but that still wouldn’t convince people that Jesus is the Christ. The Book of Mormon, while containing elements of history, is not an historical record. It is the spiritual record of some of the people that lived on the American continent. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to testify of the divine mission of Christ on this earth. It also shows us that God had prophets in the New World as well as in the Old World.
- Okay, there is a long and a short answer to family history. The short answer is that we believe that the family is the central unit in God’s plan of happiness for his children. (See the Proclamation to the World: The Family above). The long answer would require quite of bit of background that I would be happy to email to you if you are still interested. Family History plays an important role in the work we do in our temples. (Again, just to clarify—only worthy members are allowed in the temples which are not to be confused with our meeting houses [wards and stakes].)
- Will Christians who do not attend a Mormon church go to heaven?
This is a tricky question because like Fizz’s question above, there is a long and short answer. However we believe that there are certain ordinances that must be performed in order to fully accept the Atonement of Christ. These include baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, the endowment of certain blessings performed in the temple and a temple sealing (an eternal marriage also performed in the temple in conjunction with civil marriage.) In His infinite wisdom, God has developed a plan for people who never have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life. We believe that these ordinances can be performed on earth by proxy and those spirits that have passed on can choose to accept or reject these ordinances. This is much of the work that occurs in our temples and that is why we keep it sacred and only available to worthy members of the church. (That’s the short answer. Email or PM me if you want more info. This aspect of our religion is quite fascinating because there is New Testament evidence that it occurred in Christ’s church that not many churches know about. It is usually misinterpreted.)
This is also why you see such a strong missionary program in our church. We believe that everybody should have the opportunity to study these things out in their heart and mind, ask God if it is true and then act on that answer. Ultimately, Christ will judge each of us individually and decide whether or not we “get into heaven.” I don’t think anybody on this earth holds the right credentials to hand out eternal salvation or damnation. Salvation comes only through Christ, in Him and of Him. There is no other way. And yes, I believe there will be people in heaven that weren’t Mormons in this life and I also believe there will be Mormons that don’t make it into heaven. I don’t know if that fully answers your question.
- I am sorry to say I have heard Mormon children tell my kids and other kids that theirs is the only ‘true’ church and that everyone else is hell bound. Not saying this speak for everyone, of course.
As in any community, there are undoubtedly bigots, hypocrites and just plain mean people in the church. I really hope they are the extreme minority. I am sorry to hear that that happened to your children.
- “The Salamander”
I had vaguely heard about this theory before. Again, I’m not the most informed person when it comes to ambiguities surrounding the founding of our church. And as Macphisto pointed out, Joseph Smith was given the power to translate the ancient Nephite records which is now known as the Book of Mormon. I remember the Hoffmann bombings as a little boy. I should check out that book. It’s sounds fascinating.
And Diamond, what’s your background with Mormonism? You obviously know more about the religion than some members do. (You can email me directly if you wish. I’m just curious.)
- So, is it fair to say that the Holy Spirit confims the Book of Mormon as truth for you?
Yup. This is the promise of the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:3-5):
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not be true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Again, if anybody is interested in the Book of Mormon, you can either contact the church through mormon.org and get one for free, you can purchase the Doubleday edition at amazon.com, you can go to the church’s website lds.org (http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents) and read it there, or I’d be happy to send you a copy if you're interested.
Thanks everybody for your questions and comments. I also served a mission like macphisto, in Chile, and I have to tell you all, you are some of the most respective people I’ve met.
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diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Brother U2UtahU2-
You have a P/M.
diamond
-macphisto-
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U2utah2U well said, I am horrible at explaining things.
-macphisto-
Refugee
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Oh yeah, Im curious if anybody else has heard that at one point in Bono's life he was studying the Book of Mormon. If anybody knows any information about this, please point me to that direction.
-macphisto-
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From: Don
I have 2 questions. Im sure you've herd them already but nonetheless here they are: I herd that "where the streets have no name" is about Utah. But I don't know if I actually believe that. And I herd that Bono once talked about the book of mormon.
Dear Don:
On the first question: Unless Utah is heaven, I'd say no. On No. 2 -- Answer Guy doesn't have a complete collection of every word Bono has ever spoken, but given that his mouth is almost always turned on, and that no subject is too sacred, I'd say it's possible.
I have 2 questions. Im sure you've herd them already but nonetheless here they are: I herd that "where the streets have no name" is about Utah. But I don't know if I actually believe that. And I herd that Bono once talked about the book of mormon.
Dear Don:
On the first question: Unless Utah is heaven, I'd say no. On No. 2 -- Answer Guy doesn't have a complete collection of every word Bono has ever spoken, but given that his mouth is almost always turned on, and that no subject is too sacred, I'd say it's possible.
macphisto23 said:
That's what I get for being in graduate school. I make sure I dot my 'i's' and cross my 't's'. But I like your way of just jumping in there and saying "Yo, this is what we believe. Like it or not." It is actually refreshing. Sometimes I can be a little too calculated and diplomatic when it comes to answering questions about the Church. You make the gospel seem like a real part of your life, which it is. I think we do a good job at representing a wide spread of perspectives.
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
My first question regarding the mormons is if Joseph Smith was such a prophet, why did he plagerize the KJV of the Bible by including 27,000 of its words and phrases in the book of mormon? Also, why did he take names from the old testament and simply change the spelling?
Second, why is it that archeology has never proven anything in the book of mormon to be true, but it has in the Bible?
Second, why is it that archeology has never proven anything in the book of mormon to be true, but it has in the Bible?
Coemgen,
I'm not sure what your intent is in asking these questions. Usually when people ask these kind of "prove it" questions their looking for a debate and not an open dialogue. However, I will do what I can to offer you some info.
First of all, there are less than 10,000 unique words in the Book of Mormon. When you refer to Joseph Smith "plageriz[ing] the KJV of the Bible by including 27,000 of its words and phrases" there are mainly two areas of the Book of Mormon that could fit this claim.
Lehi, the first prophet of the Book of Mormon was commanded to take the brass plates with him from Jerusalem to the Americas circa 600 B.C. The brass plates were the scriptures of the Jews from the beginning up until 600 B.C. The Book of Mormon is a collection of the writings of the prophets that lived on the American continent. Lehi's son, the second prophet included many writings of Isiah and offered some commentary. Yes, the books are nearly identical and yes, it is possible the Joseph Smith could have copied them word for word. Chapter 12 of 2 Nephi contains what is Isiah 2 in the Old Testament. An interesting tidbit of information is in 2 Nephi 12:16 The verse reads:
"And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures."
What is notable in this scripture is that the Septuagint has "ships of the sea" and the Hebrew has "ships of Tarshish" but the Book of Mormon has both, showing that the brass plates had lost neither phrase. If you think about it, Joseph Smith probably did not have access to the Septuigant and the Hebrew text, let alone the ability to read them in the 1820s. It is impossible that Joseph Smith could have plagarized that particular line seeing as the KJV only contains one of the two references.
The second part of the Book of Mormon that contains scripture comparable to the KJV is in 3 Nephi when the Resurrected Christ visits the inhabitants of the American continent. He basically gives the Sermon on the Mount. He also tells the Nephites that in Jerusalem he told his Apostles that he had other sheep that were not of that fold (John 10:16). In the Book of Mormon, Christ explains that he was referring to the people on the American continent but that his Apostles did not fully understand.
Those two sections contain the most text similar to the Old and New Testament. I hope that helps.
Regarding the changes he made to Old Testament names, I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to. Would you mind providing some examples?
Be careful what you say when "archeology has never proven anything in the Book of Mormon."
Google Stela 5 and read arguments that are both pro and contra to this stone supporting a scriptural account contained in 1 Nephi 8. Many argue that Stela 5 is a graphical representation of what is known as Lehi's Dream.
If you really are interested in the arqueological evidences surrounding the Book of Mormon, I highly recommend Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS). farms.byu.edu
But, you need to ask yourself this question, if I could prove to you that the Book of Mormon is true using physical evidence, would you convert to the church and be a fully active member? That's the real question.
I don't delve too deeply into the "hard evidence" because God has told me that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that he translated the Book of Mormon and that the true church of Christ was restored to the earth.
I'm sorry, I'm not a big fan of answering these kinds of questions because they are more akin to "bible bashing" and not uplifting exchanges of ideas and beliefs.
I'm not sure what your intent is in asking these questions. Usually when people ask these kind of "prove it" questions their looking for a debate and not an open dialogue. However, I will do what I can to offer you some info.
First of all, there are less than 10,000 unique words in the Book of Mormon. When you refer to Joseph Smith "plageriz[ing] the KJV of the Bible by including 27,000 of its words and phrases" there are mainly two areas of the Book of Mormon that could fit this claim.
Lehi, the first prophet of the Book of Mormon was commanded to take the brass plates with him from Jerusalem to the Americas circa 600 B.C. The brass plates were the scriptures of the Jews from the beginning up until 600 B.C. The Book of Mormon is a collection of the writings of the prophets that lived on the American continent. Lehi's son, the second prophet included many writings of Isiah and offered some commentary. Yes, the books are nearly identical and yes, it is possible the Joseph Smith could have copied them word for word. Chapter 12 of 2 Nephi contains what is Isiah 2 in the Old Testament. An interesting tidbit of information is in 2 Nephi 12:16 The verse reads:
"And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures."
What is notable in this scripture is that the Septuagint has "ships of the sea" and the Hebrew has "ships of Tarshish" but the Book of Mormon has both, showing that the brass plates had lost neither phrase. If you think about it, Joseph Smith probably did not have access to the Septuigant and the Hebrew text, let alone the ability to read them in the 1820s. It is impossible that Joseph Smith could have plagarized that particular line seeing as the KJV only contains one of the two references.
The second part of the Book of Mormon that contains scripture comparable to the KJV is in 3 Nephi when the Resurrected Christ visits the inhabitants of the American continent. He basically gives the Sermon on the Mount. He also tells the Nephites that in Jerusalem he told his Apostles that he had other sheep that were not of that fold (John 10:16). In the Book of Mormon, Christ explains that he was referring to the people on the American continent but that his Apostles did not fully understand.
Those two sections contain the most text similar to the Old and New Testament. I hope that helps.
Regarding the changes he made to Old Testament names, I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to. Would you mind providing some examples?
Be careful what you say when "archeology has never proven anything in the Book of Mormon."
Google Stela 5 and read arguments that are both pro and contra to this stone supporting a scriptural account contained in 1 Nephi 8. Many argue that Stela 5 is a graphical representation of what is known as Lehi's Dream.
If you really are interested in the arqueological evidences surrounding the Book of Mormon, I highly recommend Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS). farms.byu.edu
But, you need to ask yourself this question, if I could prove to you that the Book of Mormon is true using physical evidence, would you convert to the church and be a fully active member? That's the real question.
I don't delve too deeply into the "hard evidence" because God has told me that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that he translated the Book of Mormon and that the true church of Christ was restored to the earth.
I'm sorry, I'm not a big fan of answering these kinds of questions because they are more akin to "bible bashing" and not uplifting exchanges of ideas and beliefs.
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nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
U2utah2U said:
I understand apostacy.
Your religion uses it to essentially disqualify all Christian churches - leaving the Mormon church as the "one true" church.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
U2utah2U said:
Even if Joseph Smith's teaching contradict the Bible?
I was referring specifically to archeological evidence. I'd rather have my testimony based on spiritual faith than being convinced by physical evidence. Theories are constanly being disproven. If my faith in the church was based soley on that, as soon as somebody disproved an archeological find I'd be up the proverbial creek without a paddle. I'm familiar with the main arguments about Book of Mormon evidences in the Yucatan penisula but, unlike some Mormons, I don't study it too deeply.
If you think about the Apostacy, there are really three options that exist. I don't think most Mormons understand the strength of our position.
1. The Catholic Church is the one true church and their line of authority traces all the way back to Peter, like they claim. If the Catholic Church is true then ALL of the Protestant churches are heretical and were cut off long ago by the true church of Christ.
2. However, if the Catholic Church is not true and they don't have the authority to act in God's name, then a Restoration of the fullness of the gospel was in order and a prophet like Joseph Smith was necessary.
3. The third possibilty is bleak indeed. The true Church of Christ does not exist on the earth and we are basically left alone to fend for ourselves with the remnants of scripture that are contained in the Bible. Everybody is open to interpreting the Bible but nobody really has the power or authority (the priesthood) to act in God's name.
I don't think the LDS church is trying to disprove or disqualify any Christian church. Our position is to invite all people to take the good and the truth that they have found in their lives and let us see if we can't add a little more.
I'll put together some scriptures that show that the Apostacy didn't just happen after the martyrdom of the Apostles, but that God has used it several times to cleanse the earth and restore his gospel. I'll PM that to you unless somebody else shows a lot of interest.
If you think about the Apostacy, there are really three options that exist. I don't think most Mormons understand the strength of our position.
1. The Catholic Church is the one true church and their line of authority traces all the way back to Peter, like they claim. If the Catholic Church is true then ALL of the Protestant churches are heretical and were cut off long ago by the true church of Christ.
2. However, if the Catholic Church is not true and they don't have the authority to act in God's name, then a Restoration of the fullness of the gospel was in order and a prophet like Joseph Smith was necessary.
3. The third possibilty is bleak indeed. The true Church of Christ does not exist on the earth and we are basically left alone to fend for ourselves with the remnants of scripture that are contained in the Bible. Everybody is open to interpreting the Bible but nobody really has the power or authority (the priesthood) to act in God's name.
I don't think the LDS church is trying to disprove or disqualify any Christian church. Our position is to invite all people to take the good and the truth that they have found in their lives and let us see if we can't add a little more.
I'll put together some scriptures that show that the Apostacy didn't just happen after the martyrdom of the Apostles, but that God has used it several times to cleanse the earth and restore his gospel. I'll PM that to you unless somebody else shows a lot of interest.
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Hey, can I just tell everybody how refreshing this is to share my beliefs without people slamming the door in my face?
Thanks for being respectful even though you may be vehemently opposed to our positions and beliefs. I hope that I have extended the same courtesy. If either macphisto or I get too "pushy," just tell us to cool it a bit.
Thanks for being respectful even though you may be vehemently opposed to our positions and beliefs. I hope that I have extended the same courtesy. If either macphisto or I get too "pushy," just tell us to cool it a bit.
nbcrusader said:
Maybe my comments above skirted this comment. Basically, where the Church of Jesus Christ diverges from other Christian faiths is that we believe in continued revelation. We don't believe that the Bible is the ONLY way in which we can hear the word of God. We believe that Christ stands at the head of his church and that he speaks his will through His prophets and apostles.
Are there any particular teachings of Joseph Smith that you see as contradictory to the Bible? I don't mean this as a challenge, it's just that as a lifelong member I'm not always aware of all of the disconcerting or contradictory beliefs of our church when compared to others. The biggies like continued revelation, additional scripture and polygamy seem to be the most troublesome. Not saying those are the only ones, but what are some of the others you are thinking of?
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
U2utah2U and McPhisto, I know my first two questions seemed a bit pushy, and I didn't mean them to come across that way. You guys seem like nice people and I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, just kind of throwing it out there. I know many people with ties to the LDS church, including a nice couple that lives next door to my wife and I and my sister's fiance, who happens to not believe the faith anymore. I've read a lot on the faith and find it interesting. There are a lot of good things about it — I particularly like your missionary system. The people of the mormon faith whom I've met or come across have been nothing but nice, and I know they're passionate about their faith. However, they're being misled. The Mormon faith looks and sounds like Christianity at first, but if you dig a little deeper, you'll find it's not even close. It twists the meaning and completely goes against Christianity in many cases. I don't mean to bash the faith, but I do feel it's important to discuss the differences between Christianity and the LDS church. This is after all, the free your mind thread. 
In matters dealing with eternity, we must be careful and deal with truth.
The main difference between the two faiths, Christianity and Mormonism, is their plans of salvation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as you guys prefer to be called, teach through Christ's death AND through being obedient to certain principles, we are saved. The Mormon plan of salvation is clearly based on doing certain good works. Basically, if you follow certain laws, keep certain ordinances then salvation is yours. This goes totally against the Bible. Salvation is completely and solely from Christ alone. Salvation is a free gift from God apart from any good work we might be able to do.
Titus 3:5 says "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." And Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible is pretty clear that it's not up to us, it's up to Christ. Think about it — if someone gave you a gift for your birthday, you would just accept it and say thanks, right? It's the same way with God's gift of salvation. If someone gave you a birthday gift, you wouldn't accept it, say thanks, and then do good things for them or try to work to earn it would you? It wouldn't truly be a gift then, you know?
As far as the practice of baptizing the dead that was mentioned in an earlier post, you're right — it is an often misinterpreted verse. The verse that Mormons claim supports the practice, 1 Corinthians 15:29, states "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"
When reading the Bible, it's important to read it carefully and not take parts out of context and apply you're own meaning to it. In this case, it's also important to know that Corinth, back in the day, was kind of like Las Vegas. It's often referred to as "crazy Corinth" because of the immorality of its people and the presence of many cults. There's even a Greek verb "to Corinthianize" that means to live shamelessly and immorally. Paul went there knowing it'd be his most difficult city to start a church, but it was a strategic place to go in spreading the Gospel. The church Paul planted there ended up being one of the largest of its time, but later reports Paul received showed the church was too easily influenced by it's city's crazy heritage and it had incorporated a number of spiritually incorrect practices. 1 Corinthians is simply Paul's letter to the church attempting to shed light on such practices and correct them. He corrects them on everything from speaking in tongues, prophecy and orderly worship to sexual morality issues. With this understanding in mind, it's no surprise they baptized the dead. Paul brings up this practice, almost in passing, in his arguments substantiating the resurrection of the dead. Nowhere in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians, does Paul or anyone else, approve this practice. Yet, the Mormons practice it regularly.
In matters dealing with eternity, we must be careful and deal with truth.The main difference between the two faiths, Christianity and Mormonism, is their plans of salvation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as you guys prefer to be called, teach through Christ's death AND through being obedient to certain principles, we are saved. The Mormon plan of salvation is clearly based on doing certain good works. Basically, if you follow certain laws, keep certain ordinances then salvation is yours. This goes totally against the Bible. Salvation is completely and solely from Christ alone. Salvation is a free gift from God apart from any good work we might be able to do.
Titus 3:5 says "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." And Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible is pretty clear that it's not up to us, it's up to Christ. Think about it — if someone gave you a gift for your birthday, you would just accept it and say thanks, right? It's the same way with God's gift of salvation. If someone gave you a birthday gift, you wouldn't accept it, say thanks, and then do good things for them or try to work to earn it would you? It wouldn't truly be a gift then, you know?
As far as the practice of baptizing the dead that was mentioned in an earlier post, you're right — it is an often misinterpreted verse. The verse that Mormons claim supports the practice, 1 Corinthians 15:29, states "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"
When reading the Bible, it's important to read it carefully and not take parts out of context and apply you're own meaning to it. In this case, it's also important to know that Corinth, back in the day, was kind of like Las Vegas. It's often referred to as "crazy Corinth" because of the immorality of its people and the presence of many cults. There's even a Greek verb "to Corinthianize" that means to live shamelessly and immorally. Paul went there knowing it'd be his most difficult city to start a church, but it was a strategic place to go in spreading the Gospel. The church Paul planted there ended up being one of the largest of its time, but later reports Paul received showed the church was too easily influenced by it's city's crazy heritage and it had incorporated a number of spiritually incorrect practices. 1 Corinthians is simply Paul's letter to the church attempting to shed light on such practices and correct them. He corrects them on everything from speaking in tongues, prophecy and orderly worship to sexual morality issues. With this understanding in mind, it's no surprise they baptized the dead. Paul brings up this practice, almost in passing, in his arguments substantiating the resurrection of the dead. Nowhere in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians, does Paul or anyone else, approve this practice. Yet, the Mormons practice it regularly.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
..sure, blamed it all on the Greeks in Corinth
db9
db9
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
OK diamond, I checked out your site, is that you carrying Bono?!?!
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
i thought it was the brother of Jesus
-macphisto-
Refugee
- Joined
- May 6, 2004
- Messages
- 1,401
coemgen said:U2utah2U and McPhisto, I know my first two questions seemed a bit pushy, and I didn't mean them to come across that way. You guys seem like nice people and I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, just kind of throwing it out there. I know many people with ties to the LDS church, including a nice couple that lives next door to my wife and I and my sister's fiance, who happens to not believe the faith anymore. I've read a lot on the faith and find it interesting. There are a lot of good things about it — I particularly like your missionary system. The people of the mormon faith whom I've met or come across have been nothing but nice, and I know they're passionate about their faith. However, they're being misled. The Mormon faith looks and sounds like Christianity at first, but if you dig a little deeper, you'll find it's not even close. It twists the meaning and completely goes against Christianity in many cases. I don't mean to bash the faith, but I do feel it's important to discuss the differences between Christianity and the LDS church. This is after all, the free your mind thread.
The main difference between the two faiths, Christianity and Mormonism, is their plans of salvation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as you guys prefer to be called, teach through Christ's death AND through being obedient to certain principles, we are saved. The Mormon plan of salvation is clearly based on doing certain good works. Basically, if you follow certain laws, keep certain ordinances then salvation is yours. This goes totally against the Bible. Salvation is completely and solely from Christ alone. Salvation is a free gift from God apart from any good work we might be able to do.
Titus 3:5 says "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." And Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible is pretty clear that it's not up to us, it's up to Christ. Think about it — if someone gave you a gift for your birthday, you would just accept it and say thanks, right? It's the same way with God's gift of salvation. If someone gave you a birthday gift, you wouldn't accept it, say thanks, and then do good things for them or try to work to earn it would you? It wouldn't truly be a gift then, you know?
As far as the practice of baptizing the dead that was mentioned in an earlier post, you're right — it is an often misinterpreted verse. The verse that Mormons claim supports the practice, 1 Corinthians 15:29, states "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"
When reading the Bible, it's important to read it carefully and not take parts out of context and apply you're own meaning to it. In this case, it's also important to know that Corinth, back in the day, was kind of like Las Vegas. It's often referred to as "crazy Corinth" because of the immorality of its people and the presence of many cults. There's even a Greek verb "to Corinthianize" that means to live shamelessly and immorally. Paul went there knowing it'd be his most difficult city to start a church, but it was a strategic place to go in spreading the Gospel. The church Paul planted there ended up being one of the largest of its time, but later reports Paul received showed the church was too easily influenced by it's city's crazy heritage and it had incorporated a number of spiritually incorrect practices. 1 Corinthians is simply Paul's letter to the church attempting to shed light on such practices and correct them. He corrects them on everything from speaking in tongues, prophecy and orderly worship to sexual morality issues. With this understanding in mind, it's no surprise they baptized the dead. Paul brings up this practice, almost in passing, in his arguments substantiating the resurrection of the dead. Nowhere in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians, does Paul or anyone else, approve this practice. Yet, the Mormons practice it regularly.
Ok, Ok, Ok you got us, our church is false, there is no way to hide now, you discovered it, Nope. Right now I have to go to a basketball game, but I will be back to respond to you. I have a book (that I need to find) that talks about christianity, and salvation, and how we gain our slavation, with scriptual proof, I will have to go back and review it, but believe me I have heard these kind statements many times! And on the subject of Baptisms for the dead, I believe you are mistaken as there are amny more valid scriptures that prove that this was a practice.( for example, where was Jesus Christs spirit during those three days after his death). I will get back with you on all of these, but I need to go.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
that's easy Melon, the Nephites were jealous.
they didn't have tanning beds back then
sheesh-
db9
they didn't have tanning beds back then
sheesh-
db9
coemgen said:
This, of course, is the Protestant view as per Martin Luther. However, I tend to see that as "willful blindness."
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works." -- James 2:14-18
The passage generally says that salvation is a combination of faith and good works, not one or the other. Martin Luther's condemnation of "good works" was out of the practice of selling indulgences to get into heaven, despite the buyers living otherwise evil lives. I would have argued, though, that they were not good works to begin with.
Melon
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
melon said:
Look at the example of "works" in James. Abraham offering Isaac.
Works means acting in faith - not just doing "dood deeds".
The combination interpretation of James directly conflicts with Ephesians.
nbcrusader said:
Exactly. But just having faith is not enough, according to James.
Well, knowing how the New Testament was written helps solve this conflict and makes "Biblical fundamentalism" difficult.
The Gospel of Matthew and the Book of James are Jewish Christian in origin. Jewish Christians believed that Christians should adhere fully to Jewish laws, including the full Mosaic Law. Thus, it is not surprising that James would put a dual emphasis on faith and good works. St. Paul, though, led a competing Gentile Christian sect that believed that Jesus now made all those laws void, replaced with Jesus' commandment: "Love one another." Hence, it is no surprise that Pauline epistles would put an emphasis on faith and faith alone.
Considering the conflict that existed between Jewish and Gentile Christians both Biblically and historically, I believe it to be sloppy to mix their theology together as most people do (such as using the Gospel of Matthew to justify "the Law," while also using Pauline epistles to justify faith versus good works). It was never intended to be that way.
So here's the question for everyone to ask themselves: are you a Jewish Christian or a Gentile Christian? That's probably for a different thread, and I don't wish to derail this one.
Melon
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Actually, Melon has a good point there about racism. African Americans were long considered a "cursed race" by the Mormons, but a recent revelation (how convenient) has permitted black males to become priests. Not too many blacks have been attracted to Mormonism though. I've read in many places that previous Mormon missionaries promised "people of the brown race" that if they joined the church they would be white in the next life. I'm sorry, but that sounds a little hoaky to me.
McPhisto, I know this comes across as I'm attacking you, and I'm not. I'm just trying to get some meaningful dialogue going here with facts. That's why we're in this forum — to get to the truth of issues. I'd love to hear what your book says.
In regards to baptizing the dead you asked where Christ's spirit went when he died, can you tell me more about how that deals with baptizing the dead?
Melon, on your point about the verses from James, I would agree with nb. That's the verse that Catholics go by too. Faith without works is dead. This is true, but we're not saved by works. That's why Christ died in the first place! We can't do anything to be holy again in the sight of God. He's a holy God, and we're sinful humans. That's why Christ died in our place and took the penalty of death that we all deserve — so by his grace, we can be saved. The works of faith are actually the result of coming to the faith, and accepting Christ. With the Holy Spirit within us, we are called to be obedient, but we're saved at the time we accept Christ.
Romans 10:8-13 says "But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
McPhisto, I know this comes across as I'm attacking you, and I'm not. I'm just trying to get some meaningful dialogue going here with facts. That's why we're in this forum — to get to the truth of issues. I'd love to hear what your book says.
In regards to baptizing the dead you asked where Christ's spirit went when he died, can you tell me more about how that deals with baptizing the dead?
Melon, on your point about the verses from James, I would agree with nb. That's the verse that Catholics go by too. Faith without works is dead. This is true, but we're not saved by works. That's why Christ died in the first place! We can't do anything to be holy again in the sight of God. He's a holy God, and we're sinful humans. That's why Christ died in our place and took the penalty of death that we all deserve — so by his grace, we can be saved. The works of faith are actually the result of coming to the faith, and accepting Christ. With the Holy Spirit within us, we are called to be obedient, but we're saved at the time we accept Christ.
Romans 10:8-13 says "But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
coemgen said:
Again, I see you quote from a Pauline epistle (Romans). I don't particularly judge one belief over the other; but I do tend to dislike the mixing of Jewish Christian and Gentile Christian beliefs.
If it is truly faith and faith alone, I believe we should stop judging others so harshly by their actions/"works." Conventional Christianity does tend to be highly judgmental of others' "works," just as Jewish Christianity would have been. "Faith and faith alone," I feel, is not really done in practice.
Melon
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Acting in faith is an expression of our salvation (justification, specifically). Salvation has always been by faith, but our natural weakness demands concrete ways to "earn" it.
Abraham was saved by faith. The Hebrews wanted clear rules and regulations instead of living and acting in faith.
Mormonism takes this to a literal, legalistic extreme.
Abraham was saved by faith. The Hebrews wanted clear rules and regulations instead of living and acting in faith.
Mormonism takes this to a literal, legalistic extreme.
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Again, NB is right here Melon. (and somehow he's really good at saying it in as few words as possible.) The two views on salvation don't actually contradict each other, but complement each other. This is my own thought here, but it's almost like you could say works justify our faith, but we are justified by our faith alone. Does that make sense? Acting by faith is an expression of our faith, and that's what we're called to do throughout the New Testament. When James asks "can that faith save him?", he's saying 'is it a true faith if it doesn't include works?' Although this is a Mormon-specific thread, this little debate here is important. I'm expecting McPhisto to bring it up anyway after he gets his book.
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