Ask the Homo

[stammer476]

Could you respect or have a good relationship with someone who believed that homosexuality is a sin?

 

[Irvine511]

This is true of my gay friends in long-term relationships as well and, frankly, it is these relationships that I admire and respect and that seem healthy to me. There is not one relationship among my close straight couple friends that I feel is as healthy and strong as those of my gay friends in long-term relationships. I see infidelity in a much different light now through my friendships with gay couples than I used to. I'm just not sure if that kind of tolerance and openness works in hetero relationships because women generally are not interested in the casual one-night stand just for sex if they are in a fulfilling relationship. Women tend to cheat because their needs aren't getting met at home in some way. Men cheat sometimes for the same reason but they can also cheat just for the pure sexual act. So this kind of tolerance in a hetero relationship more often than not would be imbalanced for the woman and leave her feeling like he had all the power in the relationship. I doubt I would end a loving relationship over one indiscretion but I'm not sure I could tolerate multiple indiscretions. It works for gay men; I've never really seen it work for hetero couples.

this does seem to be true. and these are real gender differences that manifest themselves most in same-sex couples. perhaps it does work. it's a difficult process -- forcing yourself to unlearn cultural expectations, even when they seem to be good ones (like fidelity), because they aren't necessarily the best way for everyone to live.

it's difficult. it's like advanced personhood in a way -- you've got to be aware and alert, and listen to yourself and your partner, when you're forging your own path through the world, because the path that was laid before you, and the path that most people walk on, simply doesn't apply to you. self-creation is scary, and liberating.

i'm sure i'm going to struggle with this. as i've said, i'd like a 100% monogamous relationship, but that's more of a hope than an expectation. the difficulty comes in accepting the gap between the two, and to quote Mr. Springsteen, "you've go to learn to live what you can't rise above/ if you want to ride on down into this Tunnel of Love."

 

[Irvine511]

Could you respect or have a good relationship with someone who believed that homosexuality is a sin?

you mean a sexual relationship? or a friendship?

a friendship ... it depends. on a superficial level, of course, assuming both parties were civil to each other and focused on what they had in common. if said friend sought to bring it up, to convert me, to point out their opposition, to recommend their local neighborhood ex-gay group, then yes it would be difficult to have a relationship with that person.

at the end of the day, though, if someone had made it clear to me that they did view it as a sin, and that this was as important to them as any other aspect of my personality, i don't think i'd want to be around such a person. i remember one FYM comment made to me months ago, about how this person had no problem with gay people, but that he felt it was 100% appropriate, if a gay person were in his family, to let them know that he disapproved of the "lifestyle" and viewed it as sinful. following this, the gay person's partner would never be considered a member of the family, simply a friend, and that they wouldn't get presents at Christmas, cards on birthdays, or in any way be given the same status as the heterosexual spouses of other family members.

this would force me to walk away from such a person. it's simply not possible to respect someone who doesn't respect you back, especially in such a fundamental way.

something like being gay is both an inextricable part of my identity, yet is almost incidental to who i am. society, and politics, do tend to force you into a role, and force you to have to see things in certain ways. there's no question that it's influence (quite negatively) my view of Bush, Christians (many, not all), and the Republican Party. but that's there fault, not mine.

 

[Irvine511]

Just curious Irvine, but what do you think of Beyonce?

pretty girl, good voice. don't see why she has to always be soaking wet in her videos. i wish she'd be more classy about it.

that said, if you can't enjoy "crazy in love," you probably kiss with your mouth closed.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I have a silly question-what do you think is beautiful in a woman looks-wise, and what famous women do you think are very beautiful?

Also, since you like Bruce, have you ever been to a Bruce concert?

 

[stammer476]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Could you have a deep, meaningful friendship with someone who believed that homosexuality is a sin? For this person, they maintain their stance on homosexuality for religious reasons, but wouldn't bring it up, wouldn't attempt to convert you, and would treat you just like anyone else.

Essentially what I'm asking is, would the subconscious knowledge of someone's religious views on homosexuality stop you from a deep friendship with them, even if they didn't play a "tangible" part in the relationship?

 

[ZeroDude]

Would that just not be the same as people disagreeing on a subject? No need to make a big deal out of it ( forgive me if this sounds naive)

 

[stammer476]

I don't know, and that's why I'm asking. It's easy to agree to disagree on smaller issues (political, social, etc.), but I want to know how possible is it for something as important as a person's sexuality. It's such a deep issue that I don't know if it can be ignored as easily as other things.

 

[ZeroDude]

Yea I see what you mean it depends on whether or not a person would want to make an issue out of it

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I wonder if it would not be akin to my not being able to be truly close to someone who believes that women are not fully equal (ie. not fully human, whether they state it that way or not). I can be friends on a certain casual level, but with that lack of basic respect, any sort of true relationship becomes impossible.

 

[ZeroDude]

Yea well that sort of thing usually makes the person in question an arse in most cases you know but somethings there are reasonablely good people who have some strange views

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I wonder that too. I think it would always be in your mind that they think that way about you. I haven't had that many male friends so I don't know from experience, but that's an interesting analogy sula

 

[Irvine511]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Could you have a deep, meaningful friendship with someone who believed that homosexuality is a sin? For this person, they maintain their stance on homosexuality for religious reasons, but wouldn't bring it up, wouldn't attempt to convert you, and would treat you just like anyone else.

Essentially what I'm asking is, would the subconscious knowledge of someone's religious views on homosexuality stop you from a deep friendship with them, even if they didn't play a "tangible" part in the relationship?

i'd like to think that it wouldn't, but i feel like the discussion of relationships, and, as bono says, "love and faith and sex and fear" are so integral, for me, to a close, deep friendship, that knowing that how i love and have sex are deeply disapproved of by the friend would naturally make me hold back and prevent intimacy and honesty.

it does get hard. i understand that some people have strong religious convictions, and you want to respect those. yet it becomes hard to respect the belief -- not the person -- when ever fiber of your being tells you that it is flat-out wrong.

gosh, sounds a bit like hate the sin, love the sinner.



in sum, a friendship, absolutely. but true emotional intimacy, that would be much harder.

 

[stammer476]

Thanks for your reply, Irvine. And thanks for this thread. I guess I've got some more thinking to do.

 

[cell]

i'd like to think that it wouldn't, but i feel like the discussion of relationships, and, as bono says, "love and faith and sex and fear" are so integral, for me, to a close, deep friendship, that knowing that how i love and have sex are deeply disapproved of by the friend would naturally make me hold back and prevent intimacy and honesty.

it does get hard. i understand that some people have strong religious convictions, and you want to respect those. yet it becomes hard to respect the belief -- not the person -- when ever fiber of your being tells you that it is flat-out wrong.

gosh, sounds a bit like hate the sin, love the sinner.



in sum, a friendship, absolutely. but true emotional intimacy, that would be much harder.

i believe its possible. my best friend who's passed on now, was very open and honest with me about everything about what he was going thru at the time. i never once questioned his sexuality in the open. i couldnt do that to him. i loved him too much.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Well, you're a bigger person than me, Irvine. I'm not even gay and I don't think I could have anything more than an acquaintanceship with someone who believed homosexuality is a sin. I guess in my experience people who believe that also have other beliefs that are so fundamentally different from my own that it's difficult to find much common ground. I have this problem with my family and while they have always welcomed my gay friends to their dinner table, there is always that underlying judgment that I know is present, and even comments later like, "He's such a nice guy, it's just too bad that...." blah blah blah. As a result (of this and many other differences), my relationship with them is strained and formal at best.

 

[stammer476]

Joyfulgirl, I'm sorry to hear that your experiences with people of this belief system have been so negative. And I'm even more sorry to hear how often this happens.

I hope we can all realize that with every group there are exceptions, and that we all owe each other the respect of the benefit of a doubt. Coming from someone of my position, I also realize that is a very arrogant thing to say.

Such a difficult issue . . . I wish there were easier answers.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I wonder if it would not be akin to my not being able to be truly close to someone who believes that women are not fully equal (ie. not fully human, whether they state it that way or not). I can be friends on a certain casual level, but with that lack of basic respect, any sort of true relationship becomes impossible.

I think this is a really good analogy because being gay isn't just something that you do that one can disagree with. It's part of the very fabric of who you.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I hope we can all realize that with every group there are exceptions, and that we all owe each other the respect of the benefit of a doubt.

Of course there are exceptions, although I can't actually think of any at the moment!






sorry, I know this isn't ask joyfulgirl

 

[Irvine511]

I have a silly question-what do you think is beautiful in a woman looks-wise, and what famous women do you think are very beautiful?

Also, since you like Bruce, have you ever been to a Bruce concert?

i like very healthy looking women, not so much make up. i'd say i'd probably be more of a "butt man" than a "breast man" as i think slowly tapering backs that lead into a slender, smooth backside and smaller breasts are more attractive than the Playboy-style "tits 'n ass." these women tend to be more asian or european, in general. famous women -- gwyneth paltrow, charlize theron, emanuelle beret, etc.

yes, i have seen Bruce, in boston in 1999. amazing, amazing show. so glad i got to see him. a concert 2nd only to the Elevation show i saw (yes, bruce was better than Popmart).

 

[Irvine511]

Essentially what I'm asking is, would the subconscious knowledge of someone's religious views on homosexuality stop you from a deep friendship with them, even if they didn't play a "tangible" part in the relationship?

yes, probably.

 

[Irvine511]

I wonder if it would not be akin to my not being able to be truly close to someone who believes that women are not fully equal (ie. not fully human, whether they state it that way or not). I can be friends on a certain casual level, but with that lack of basic respect, any sort of true relationship becomes impossible.

i think that's exactly right.

an argument could be made that being a man or a woman is not something that you choose, or that there's no behavior involved. however, any gay person knows that they didn't choose to be gay, (and a straight person insisting to the contrary is one of the most gob-smackingly frustrating things i can think of ... i mean, really, just how would you know!?!?!!), and while the "homosexuals good, homosexuality (i.e., fucking) bad" argument holds more intellectual sense, it's still pretty hard to fully respect a person who holds that view.

then again, i could certainly be friends on a deep, intimate level with someone who was against pre-marital sex.

but it's not like i'm allowed to get married anyway ...

maybe if we did reduce it to a disagreement over sex, and specific acts, and the pre/post-marital aspects of it, a deeper friendship might be possible. it would have to be understood that such disagreements didn't apply exclusively to homosexuality, though.

 

[Irvine511]

Well, you're a bigger person than me, Irvine. I'm not even gay and I don't think I could have anything more than an acquaintanceship with someone who believed homosexuality is a sin. I guess in my experience people who believe that also have other beliefs that are so fundamentally different from my own that it's difficult to find much common ground. I have this problem with my family and while they have always welcomed my gay friends to their dinner table, there is always that underlying judgment that I know is present, and even comments later like, "He's such a nice guy, it's just too bad that...." blah blah blah. As a result (of this and many other differences), my relationship with them is strained and formal at best.

that is what i fear. the nice-to-your-face thing. and the phrase, "what a waste!" i mean, i suppose that's meant to be a compliment, as in, you'd be great for women, you should pro-create, etc. and that's nice to hear, but it also assigns a greater importance and worth to a heterosexual's life than a homosexual's life.

and, deep down, because of the value of pro-creation, i do wonder if my life isn't somehow less "worthwhile" if i choose not to have children. i do think being a parent is the hardest and most important job in the world, and the one thing the world needs is better parents. it does seem like a waste if i am unable to contribute to that, as well as many, many other gay men i know who are very, very good with children.

sometimes, it does seem like a cruel joke.

 

[Irvine511]

sorry, I know this isn't ask joyfulgirl

please continue to contribute however you wish! you seem to know as much, if not more, about this as i do.

 

[deep]

gosh, sounds a bit like hate the sin, love the sinner.

i have come to the conclusion that this is just a smoke screen for bigoted beliefs.


can someone have a bigoted belief and not be a bigot?

i am thinking perhaps, yes

 

[nbcrusader]

i have come to the conclusion that this is just a smoke screen for bigoted beliefs.

can someone have a bigoted belief and not be a bigot?

i am thinking perhaps, yes

Jesus hates sin and loves the sinner. (and I'm not referring to any specific sin here)

Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?



Unless you think Jesus is a bigot?

 

[stammer476]

i have come to the conclusion that this is just a smoke screen for bigoted beliefs.

That's quite a statement. And easy to say until you've actually had to do it. When you've been deeply hurt by someone's sin (alcoholism, infidelity, drug abuse, etc.) and found the grace to forgive them, you'll realize it's more than a "smoke screen."

Bigotry can go both ways, deep.

 

[Irvine511]

Jesus hates sin and loves the sinner. (and I'm not referring to any specific sin here)

Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?



Unless you think Jesus is a bigot?

well, you're last comment is clearly related to a specific sin, which then begs the question: when did jesus hate the sin of homosexuality? when did jesus call homosexuality a sin?

and if you think about it ... a confirmed bachelor at 33, had good carpentry skills (we can probably infer good sense of interior design as well), women seemed to like him and find him non-threatening, had a posse of 12 dudes hanging on his every word ...

 

[Irvine511]

That's quite a statement. And easy to say until you've actually had to do it. When you've been deeply hurt by someone's sin (alcoholism, infidelity, drug abuse, etc.) and found the grace to forgive them, you'll realize it's more than a "smoke screen."

Bigotry can go both ways, deep.

who's harmed by homosexuality?

(and just to pre-empt, people can be harmed by irresponsible sexual behavior in the form of STDs and emotional abuse, but the transmission of STDs knows no orientation).

 

[stammer476]

I didn't say anyone was. I was commenting on deep's statement. While "hate the sin, love the sinner" has been misused in many cases, it can't be simply thrown out as a "smoke screen for bigoted beliefs." It's more than that.