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Old 07-21-2005, 02:11 PM   #421
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Originally posted by LATwins
what a bastard for cheating!!

BTW...LOVE U2 in drag! Drag queens are great.
Who do you think would make the sexiest drag queen
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Old 01-27-2006, 06:43 PM   #422
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i don't know if it has been asked,

but why did you choose Irvine in your screen name?
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Old 01-28-2006, 12:36 AM   #423
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do you like make-up??
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Old 01-28-2006, 12:37 AM   #424
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how do you feel about going to hell?
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Old 01-28-2006, 09:15 PM   #425
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Wow, this is a great thread. Never seen this one before-- it must have preceded my arrival in FYM. Irvine, you are such a born spokesman, in the noblest sense possible of that term.

Is it too late for me to toss in my random two cents on some of the issues in here?

I liked very much what you had to say about the connections between camp and comedy and the common reasons why blacks, Jews and gays are disproportionately drawn to comedy as a profession. I once had the surreal experience of a weekend at one of those now-endangered, old-timey Jewish weekend resorts in the Catskills, where a standup show over dinner is the order of the day. And there was a LOT of campiness in those routines--in particular, one Hasidic camp routine (complete with full-blown Yiddishkeit-proper garb and over-the-top Russian Yiddish accents), affectionately lampooning the extreme clannishness of that community, stands out in my mind as something that made my sides ache for hours. And ironically, it made it all the more funny for me to be watching it from the perspective of someone who arrived in that often bizarrely insular world which is Brooklyn Jewry (and fairly happily left it when I hit college) coming from a night-and-day-different, rural Southern community. A bit of schadenfreude there too, as while there was in many ways a powerful self-affirmation gained by the sudden immersion in a pervasively Jewish social and cultural world, there was also an awful lot of feeling (and being made to feel) like a pathetically clueless redneck freak who will never know what it means to feel Jewish to the bones.

Regarding the lack of closeness between the gay and lesbian communities...would it be naive on my part to suggest that the amplified-through-emotional-independence grievance which lesbians feel towards male privilege (which gay men do certainly enjoy *some* benefits from) has something to do with it? In my experience no one loathes gay conservatives (and their real or imagined associations with Good Ol' Boy politics) quite so much as lesbians, and that too might cast a pall of mistrust over relations overall. (Qualifier: this is based on my own personal experience with my own particular lesbian friends, who may not be representative.) Also, I have to say that while gay men overall tend *strongly* to be pro-feminist, highly empathetic comrades of women, misogyny among gays is not entirely unheard of, and I have known a few gay men for whom scornful ridicule of various common female neuroses and idiosyncrasies was a stock part of their running commentary on greater society. Which rightly or wrongly, I think tends to be heard by most women, lesbian or straight, as somehow being more malignant than when straight men do the same, as the awareness that this particular speaker doesn't share straight men's "redeeming" "virtue" of being emotionally dependent on women amplifies the wound somewhat.

"Hate the sin, not the sinner"...I have never been able to see what is virtuous in this philosophy. At a bare mimimum, why could it not instead be "Love the sinner, not the sin" and start from there?

Regarding my own personal evolution in attitudes towards homosexuality: sadly yes, there is no two ways about it, most Orthodox-raised Jews alive today were indeed exposed as children to our traditional interpretation of the relevant Scriptural passages as unambiguously and irrevocably forbidding acceptance of homosexuality as a morally upright way to live. I have mentioned before in FYM that my own eventual reconsidering of this issue played a major role in my own migration to Conservative Judaism, with its (very cautiously) greater receptivity to the view that Jewish law is an evolving process, and that reconsidering some of our laws in light of the moral principles implicit in others is not only acceptable but righteous. That said, and at the risk of sounding apologist or blinded by romantically optimistic views of the community I grew up in, I sincerely do believe that the *very* different sensibilities Orthodox (and some other) Jews hold regarding "manliness" and the proper bases of male camaraderie, compared to the American mainstream, really does make for significantly less of that poisonous "ick factor" and innate sense of revulsion at the idea that one man might be erotically attracted to another. (And as for male homosociality in the Orthodox community--my God, don't get me started.) So to a point, there is at least somewhat of a headstart there for our collective readiness to eventually give the gay members of our community the full embrace they deserve. Also, for me personally, repeatedly witnessing the awful taint of innate disgust underlying so many people's otherwise "rationalized" aversions to gay rights and gay pride led me to draw some sobering connections between this prejudice and the one which meant I had no living relatives save my parents and sibs growing up. In fact, this was really more formative for me than getting to know more openly gay people through college, etc.--while that was certainly broadening, like most Jews I have never seen our laws and beliefs as binding on or best for anyone but ourselves, so I was never really troubled per se by the idea that (non-Jewish) homosexuality was inherently renegade.

Yeesh, this post is really turning into an albatross. Time to wrap it up! But, I do have one last little question. It's not really for you, but for your Southern boyfriend (of all people!) should you have the time or interest to pose it. It's pursuant to a lunchtime conversation I had recently with a visiting black friend from childhood, a fellow Itta Bena-ian, who like me has lived outside the South for many years now. We were reminiscing on the kinds of prejudices we experienced as "minorities" in childhood (blacks were not truly "minorities" in Itta Bena, but you know what I mean) and how they compare to the far subtler and more disguised prejudices we've encountered north of the Mason-Dixon line, where folks are far more inhibited about revealing their prejudices publicly. And we wound up laughing bleakly about how you can *sometimes* actually get to feeling a perverse nostalgia for the days when your enemies announced themselves upfront by openly saying, We don't like you niggers coming 'round our fine store/church/school here, or All you Christ-killing leeches is gonna burn in hell someday (in a tone that gleefully implied, And the sooner the better). Now being gay is quite different from these identities of course, in that gays are not "a people" per se and are less likely (I think?) to be seen as generic representatives of some congenitally disagreeable entity, but nonetheless I am curious to know if your bf, as a gay Southerner, has ever felt himself--or noted in others of that description--any twinges of this sentiment.

OK. yolland the insufferable windbag shutting up now...
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Old 01-29-2006, 12:40 AM   #426
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Wow, this is a great thread. Never seen this one before
i was sorry

i bumped this

but, there is a lot of good stuff in here

thanks for replying yolland

hopefully, some others will take the time to read this
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Old 01-29-2006, 11:53 AM   #427
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When do you refer to a gay as "she"? I always use "he" to avoid confusion, but my friends use "she" amongst themselves and call each other "sister".

foray
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Old 01-30-2006, 06:33 PM   #428
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Originally posted by Carmelu2fan


Who do you think would make the sexiest drag queen


see my Avatar.

<----------------
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Old 01-30-2006, 06:34 PM   #429
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i don't know if it has been asked,

but why did you choose Irvine in your screen name?


it was, in retrospect, a bad decision, but "Irvine" is from the author of Trainspotting, Irvine Welsh.

and i am 5 feet 11 inches tall.
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Old 01-30-2006, 06:37 PM   #430
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Originally posted by love_u2_adam
do you like make-up??


on women it can be nice, but i prefer the "no make up" natural look that, i understand, actually takes make up.

it's an indispensable part of drag.

Billy Joe and Brandon Flowers look great with it.

i have no use for the stuff. have no interest in women's clothing or make up, either putting it on or taking it off
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Old 01-30-2006, 06:40 PM   #431
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When do you refer to a gay as "she"? I always use "he" to avoid confusion, but my friends use "she" amongst themselves and call each other "sister".

foray


this is not something i've ever done, but i'm told it's more of an old-school thing, particularly in the south. i have a crazy, crazy neighbor who is gay and he sometimes calls me "miss" and will refer to other gay men as "she" as well, but it's not something i've ever heard anyone under 40 do.

actually, he's the only person i've ever heard do that, and i had to get my 42 year old roommate who's from New Orleans to explain what he meant.

it does seem to be a very "amongst the peeps" term, so i don't think it would be a good idea for a straight person to call gay men "she."

but i have never used it and have no use for the term.
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Old 01-30-2006, 07:56 PM   #432
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how do you feel about going to hell?

i can't wait to skinny-dip in that Lake of Fire.
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Old 01-30-2006, 08:01 PM   #433
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i can't wait to skinny-dip in that Lake of Fire.
good times!
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Old 01-30-2006, 08:09 PM   #434
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good times!


will i see you there?
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Old 01-30-2006, 08:14 PM   #435
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don't you know communists go to hell, irvine?
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