Carmelu2fan
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
LATwins said:what a bastard for cheating!!
BTW...LOVE U2 in drag! Drag queens are great.
Who do you think would make the sexiest drag queen
LATwins said:what a bastard for cheating!!
BTW...LOVE U2 in drag! Drag queens are great.
yolland said:Wow, this is a great thread. Never seen this one before
Carmelu2fan said:
Who do you think would make the sexiest drag queen
deep said:i don't know if it has been asked,
but why did you choose Irvine in your screen name?
love_u2_adam said:do you like make-up??
famous rungi said:When do you refer to a gay as "she"? I always use "he" to avoid confusion, but my friends use "she" amongst themselves and call each other "sister".
foray
Se7en said:how do you feel about going to hell?
Irvine511 said:
i can't wait to skinny-dip in that Lake of Fire.
Yeah, but in the Marxist circle of hell you get to spend eternity listening to Karl and Friedrich drone on about dialectical materialism, with only the occasional hit of opium for relief. I hear the queer circle is a lot more light-hearted.Se7en said:don't you know communists go to hell, irvine?
yolland said:
Yeah, but in the Marxist circle of hell you get to spend eternity listening to Karl and Friedrich drone on about dialectical materialism, with only the occasional hit of opium for relief. I hear the queer circle is a lot more light-hearted.
yolland said:OK.
Se7en, I hope my post didn't come across the wrong way--I have no idea what your actual ideological loyalties are, but anyways I meant it as a joke. As you know, the Jews are going to hell too, and I daresay there will be quite a lot of boorish droning in our circle as well. Talmudic disputation in hell , --I'll be bringing my bouzouki along for the musical interludes.
Irvine511 said:
with jews, gays, and commies, i think i'd RATHER be in hell.
all the fun people will be around.
yolland said:
Yeah, but in the Marxist circle of hell you get to spend eternity listening to Karl and Friedrich drone on about dialectical materialism, with only the occasional hit of opium for relief. I hear the queer circle is a lot more light-hearted.
Don't forget idol-worshipping lapsed Catholics!Irvine511 said:
with jews, gays, and commies, i think i'd RATHER be in hell.
all the fun people will be around.
yolland said:Is it too late for me to toss in my random two cents on some of the issues in here?
I liked very much what you had to say about the connections between camp and comedy and the common reasons why blacks, Jews and gays are disproportionately drawn to comedy as a profession. I once had the surreal experience of a weekend at one of those now-endangered, old-timey Jewish weekend resorts in the Catskills, where a standup show over dinner is the order of the day.
OK. yolland the insufferable windbag shutting up now...
No, more like Woody Allen's Love and Death, with a judiciously tasteless pinch of John Waters thrown in for good measure.Irvine511 said:like in "Dirty Dancing"?!?!?!
Much of this is also true of relations between lesbians and other feminists--there is a similarly quasi-alienated stereotype that lesbians are all just a bit too serious about this Smash Patriarchy Now! stuff. Though my sense is that lesbian involvement was directly behind much of the more "fun," media-assassin type feminist activism of the '60s and '70s, with its tongue-in-cheek (camp?) sense of pageantry. I mean, storming the Miss America pageant and hurling chunks of raw meat onstage--brilliant! Compare that to some of the far more earnest spectacles of today.there does seem to be the stereotype that lesbians are intensely political, and gay men are just in it for a few laughs and a killer soundtrack. as with all stereotypes, some truth in there, and it's tough to create a sense of solidarity when people are bound together through a common oppressor and similar methods of oppression, and little else (which, come to think of it, explains a whole lot about how ineffective the Left is). there has historically been a component of the political in lesbianism, whereas male homosexuality has become political after the fact of its existence.
Very true, and there's that "ick factor" again there--macho concepts of maleness do indeed draw much of their revulsion towards homosexuality from a sense that it is unforgivable for men to want to be "feminized" in that way. This machismo, by the way, is what I was optimistically speculating to be less prevalent among Orthodox Jews--though to be sure, repeatedly having the idea that something is an abomination before God beaten into your head creates its own kind of "ick." (Tangential but relevant example: I've known Orthodox Jews who vomited spontaneously upon discovering that a dish they'd been told contained no shellfish or pork, in fact did. Completely irrational reaction, of course; anger at the waiter would be a more logical response, and besides it's not like these laws are based on any idea that these animals are "filthy"--God made them and pronounced them good, after all!--but nonetheless, there's the impact of years of religiously motivated avoidance for you.)at the end of the day, the common oppressor is less homophobia than it's much more pervasive father, sexism. yes, i think gay men can and do benefit from sexism, though they are also it's targets -- what else is gay bashing than an expression of disgust and hatred at the existence of a "feminine" male?
That's per se, BTW. Latin for "as itself."i'd think that the mocking of female idiosyncrasies -- aside from drag, which is performance -- by gay men would be less offensive because sexism by gay men does not pose a threat, per say.
Yeah, i would very much like to have that discussion sometime. But to address the fear-of-dehumanization thing, yes, it's blindingly and at times pathetically obvious that Jews everywhere, even in America, remain haunted by that fear on a very profound level, despite the fact (which I hope it goes without saying I'm aware of) that it's far, far safer to be Jewish here today than to be gay, or black, or Latino, or for that matter a woman. Still, it's amazing how quick that old shrill vocabulary of Jewish scum, leeches, trash, etc. is to leap to some people's lips when stories of prominent Jews behaving badly (usually either through underhanded support of Israeli hardliners, or vulgar millionaire flamboyance) appear in the news, and I can't help shuddering when I hear it.i think that all victims of any kinds of social-oppression -- especially the kind of oppression that can turn into violence, whether a baseball bat to the back of the head or mass extermination in the 1940s -- share a nagging sense of fear that the majority/power structure/whoever is capable of dehumanizing and then exterminiating you, and you'd be powerless to stop it. i mentioned before, and i haven't returned to it, but i will, interesting parallels between something like the Holocaust and the AIDS crisis of the 1980s -- it's not a perfect comparison, by any means, but there are interesting parallels to be drawn between the two, but i really don't have time for that now.
i will follow up though, eventually.
I posted this in another thread recently:still, i bet we've both had the experience of looking at photographs of the past -- for me, it was the hollowed out cheeks and KS marks on the faces of men in the 1980s, as well as stories of bashings, and combined with ample evidence i see every day of painful, tragic lives -- and imagining ourselves in that situation. on the basis of our membership in a respective social "group," that could indeed be us were circumstances any different.
So for me, it's perhaps a little bit less about imagining myself in that situation than about experiencing this indescribably insurmountable gulf (which is also simultaneously a suffocatingly binding tie) to my people's past. Have you ever had the experience of feeling totally understood, yet also totally misunderstood, by people who mistakenly imagine this intimate relationship to your community's tragedies to be a source of warm, affirmative, group cohesion feelings? It is so true, and yet so horribly awfully not.I can still remember being sort of twelve or thirteenish and looking at at a Holocaust history book, one I'd perused dozens of times before, and looking at a fairly typical photo of piles of wasted tortured corpses carelessly heaped up like so much lawn garbage and suddenly grasping for the first time, Oh, OK, well, so this must be how my parents remember their parents and siblings and cousins and all winding up. I can't really think of a word for this feeling--something kind of like what you feel when you're much older and notice your mother sobbing or your father slumped over with his head in his hands, and suddenly feel this sort of searing, alarming, achingly tender but also deeply saddened and helpless rush of emotions because you realize how horribly vulnerable and alone the people keeping you from feeling that way really are themselves. Kind of like that feeling, but a whole lot more chilling and disturbing, because you can't empathize your way across that gulf and you can't recognize or read it in their behavior.
Well that's always good to hear, needily insecure though that remark probably sounded. Being a professor's kid myself, I am all too aware how that impluse to pontificate can unwittingly spill over into areas of your life where it's not always welcome!you are anything but insufferable.
martha said:
So, the question:
How do gay couples make decisions about their roles in a marriage/relationship? (I guess I can figure out how lesbian couples do it. Being a woman, I tend to think of women as being inherently more flexible about the way they live.) Does the fact that each one is a man help the other understand the thought processes of the other as these things are either being decided or evolving as a natural part of the relationship? Straight couples have countless role models for every kind of relationship to look to. Gay couples, it would seem, have been limited in their access to role models. (I have no doubt that this will change for the next generations of gay couples, as gay relationships become more public.)