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Old 02-10-2005, 12:26 PM   #181
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Originally posted by stammer476
I didn't say anyone was. I was commenting on deep's statement. While "hate the sin, love the sinner" has been misused in many cases, it can't be simply thrown out as a "smoke screen for bigoted beliefs." It's more than that.


fair enough.

i agree with the basic premise -- i might hate alcoholism (though hate is a strong word), but i don't hate alcohol, or the alcoholic.

that makes good sense.
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Old 02-10-2005, 12:27 PM   #182
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Unless you think Jesus is a bigot?
Jesus isn't a bigot. His followers can be.

Ignoring the circumstantial evidence that the Centurion and the "servant" was possibly the Centurion and his gay lover (Romans would never have cared that much about their slaves, unless they were lovers [and Roman emperors would sometimes deify their dead slave lovers, as Greco-Roman religion believed you could sometimes become a god after death]), Jesus also hung out with "lepers," who were literal outcasts, as prescribed by the Mosaic Law, thought to be afflicted due to sin. Fast forward to 1873, and we now know it's caused by bacteria.

I could say the same thing about homosexuality. Sure, people may have thought it to be symptom of sin, but fast forward to the present, and we know precisely that it is a part of nature, for better or for worse. It isn't about "hating God." It isn't about idolatry. It isn't about raping houseguests.

Believing what I believe about Jesus, He would never reject someone for who they were. In this respect, St. Paul was correct: faith over good works is all you needed. It was the Pharisees who demanded that "believers" live up to strict standards, and I believe that modern Christians are little different. "Fear of change" is very powerful.

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Old 02-10-2005, 01:24 PM   #183
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well, you're last comment is clearly related to a specific sin, which then begs the question: when did jesus hate the sin of homosexuality? when did jesus call homosexuality a sin?
Actually, I did not intend to refer to a specific sin at all. Just the thought process behind "love the sinner, hate the sin".

I was afraid that a wonderful thread about personal insights would turn into a political/religious debate. I should not have replied to deep.




I'd rather hear more about your experiences as a competative swimmer so I can share them with my kids.
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Old 02-10-2005, 01:32 PM   #184
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Originally posted by melon
Believing what I believe about Jesus, He would never reject someone for who they were. In this respect, St. Paul was correct: faith over good works is all you needed. It was the Pharisees who demanded that "believers" live up to strict standards, and I believe that modern Christians are little different. "Fear of change" is very powerful.
You bring up an excellent point, Melon. Even if homosexuality is a sin, the doctrines of grace would theoritically over-rule the problem anyway. This tension is one of the most difficult situations I deal with as a pastor.

But anyway, this is not about me.

**back to lurking**
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Old 02-10-2005, 02:09 PM   #185
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Actually, I did not intend to refer to a specific sin at all. Just the thought process behind "love the sinner, hate the sin".

I was afraid that a wonderful thread about personal insights would turn into a political/religious debate. I should not have replied to deep.


I'd rather hear more about your experiences as a competative swimmer so I can share them with my kids.

maybe i was a bit too quick in my response. i suppose i took the "is Jesus a bigot" comment and read into it things that weren't there. apologies. and thanks for the nice comment.

now, swimming. love it. so much. and it's even more fun to coach than to swim. i started when i was 7 years old with a local Y team, and then moved on to a very competitive USS program. by the age of 10, i was swimming 6 days a week at 6, 000 yards a session, and was at that point easily one of the best swimmers in the state since no 10 year old should be swimming that much. things took a bit of a nose dive when i was 12, and my parents began to realize that the coach was a big problem -- too long to get into here, but it really wasn't a healthy environment for an 11 year old boy, and to this day i can trace some of my neurosis back to his comments ... kids, especially when they want to be good at an activity, take their coach's comments VERY seriously -- and i then switched teams when i was 12, and wound up on a still good but less militaristic program with a great bunch of guys my age. swimming became my main social outlet as a teenager, and i prefered the kids i swam with to those i went to school with. my best year was at 14 when i swam my one and only NAG top 16 consideration time in teh 200 meter fly.

high school swimming was a lot of fun, it's wonderfully competitive with the dual meets, and much more fun for spectators as you have teams competing one on one, as opposed to dozens of teams at the state championships. high school wasn't necessarily great for my swimming, as i was more of a 200s swimmer, and high school was all 100s. i would do the 500 in dual meets, and the 200 IM and 100 bk at state championships. summers were great, as i was a better long course swimmer and all the kids on my USS team were back together and we had some very fast relays that broke state records and were nationally ranked.

what's so great about swimming, i think, is how individual it is. you can finish last, but if you improve your time, you're happy. it's also a sport that's not intrinsically fun, like basketball, but it becomes more fun the more you work at it. no one is instantly good at it either, you have to work hard, and your hard work is rewarded in a very tangible way -- improved times. swimmers are very fit, and learn that they have to work long and hard (two-a-day practices sometimes, 10,000 yards a day for a race that lasts maybe 2 minutes) for even small improvements in time. you start training at the end of September for a meet in March -- it rewards patience, determination, self-reliance, and faith in hard work. at the end of the day, you can't blame a loss/poor performance on a teammate who missed a free throw.

it's also rather beautiful, i think. especially backstroke. so much of swimming comes down to technique, and i've spent countless hours doing stroke drills -- and all you have to go on is feel. you can't watch yourself swim, or do the drills correctly; you rely on your nervous system, a general sense of what feels right. it's a fairly mental sport, and practices require lots of brains, but races require your brain to be empty, to zen-out and let your body take over.

i just think it's a great sport. top to bottom.

and it's also the USA's most successful Olympic sport, which makes it fun for us Yankee swimmers every 4 years.
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:01 PM   #186
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I appreciate your reflections on swimming. It confirms a number of concerns we've had with the "militaristic" programs in the area. There are a number in Southern California (Mission Viejo, AZOT, Nova). Fortunately, we ended up with a real small local team. Our son has rolled over to the water polo program, but our daughter continues (she is almost 5).

I may have more questions if you are willing.
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:31 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Jesus hates sin and loves the sinner. (and I'm not referring to any specific sin here)

Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?



Unless you think Jesus is a bigot?

do these same people say:


we love the child molester
we just hate child molestation

we love the rapist
we just hate the rape


we love the 911 attackers
we just hate the 911 attack

we love the beheaders
we just hate the beheadings





when people say they love gays
they just hate gay behavior

i take pause


i don't believe many have any true affection for the other examples i gave
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:37 PM   #188
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Originally posted by stammer476


That's quite a statement. And easy to say until you've actually had to do it. When you've been deeply hurt by someone's sin (alcoholism, infidelity, drug abuse, etc.) and found the grace to forgive them, you'll realize it's more than a "smoke screen."

Bigotry can go both ways, deep.
i meant this in the context of homosexuality

i only hear it being used by people in context of condemning homosexuality
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:37 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I appreciate your reflections on swimming. It confirms a number of concerns we've had with the "militaristic" programs in the area. There are a number in Southern California (Mission Viejo, AZOT, Nova). Fortunately, we ended up with a real small local team. Our son has rolled over to the water polo program, but our daughter continues (she is almost 5).

I may have more questions if you are willing.


the militaristic programs can be a positive experience, if two criteria are met: 1) the coach is positive, 2) the swimmer wants it. the problem with the program i was on when i was younger wasn't so much the workload, but it was the manner in which workouts were conducted, the pressure that was put on swimmers to conform to every expectation of the coach, and the fact that the coach took every missed practice as a slight to him and his program. the most important thing, however, is the swimmer, and just how badly he/she wants to be a good. you're also in SoCal, probably still the most competitive swimming region in the country (alongside Texas and Florida). i've heard of the programs you mentioned -- Mission Viejo has been a national powerhouse for 30 some odd years. in a way, i'm sort of jealous, because you have access to some of the best coaches in the world. when i was 15, i was ready to be swimming 9 workouts a week, but i didn't have the coaching or the facilities available to me (and there's something really difficult about getting out of bed at 6am to go to practice on a January morning in New England). but, as well we know, great coaches aren't great people.

while CT hasn't turned out many Olympians (the last was Janel Jorgenson in 1988), the DC metro area where i now live is home to one of the best club programs in the country, North Baltimore Aquatic Club, where Michael Phelps swam. i remember a very in-depth conversation i had with a father who's kids had swum in the area. NBAC's previous coach, the one who coached Anita Nall and Beth Botsford, was apparently an egomaniacal jerk who viewed his swimmers' performances as a reflection upon him; apparently, Phelps' coach, Bob Bowman, is militaristic, but a level-headed guy who's fair and has his swimmer's best interests at heart.

but one of the sad facts of the sport, especialy at a national level, is that for every Olympian a club program may turn out, there are 25 kids with shoulder injuries who spent their teenage years churning out laps in a swimming pool. for me, that's where i wanted to be, because my friends were at practice; for others, it's not the same. for every kid who gets a scholarship to a Divison 1 school, there are a hundred who leave the sport frustrated and burned out.

and some of this has to do with a swimmer's own perspective. why are they swimming? one thing i learned, particularly during college when i started to plateau and lose the intense interest that i had as a young teenager, was that the goals weren't important, but the process of becoming a good swimmer was.

at the end of the day, the swimmer has to want it because s/he wants "it." most children -- even teenagers -- want to please the adutls in their lives. the way for swimming, whether twice a week or 10x a week, to be a postive influence is for the swimmer has to swim for himself, not for the coach, and not for the parents.

i'm happy to answer any questions you have.

and water polo is a great sport, too. lots of fun to watch -- i played intramurally a bit in college.
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Old 02-10-2005, 04:08 PM   #190
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stammer,

My problem with popping in and out of these threads

Is that sometimes I reply without reading the entire thread first.
Your questions seem very sincere and you said something like your have some thinking to do,
I commend your willingness to consider other opinions.

I need to do a lot of thinking most of the time.
My remarks were not directed at you but only those that use "hate the sinner" to further a political agenda.

peace
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Old 02-11-2005, 02:02 AM   #191
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I'm a bigot.

Sometimes I feel I've gotta be though.

I mean I'll listen to what someone else has gotta say, but there's no way I'm gonna respect their beliefs cause sometimes it's entrirely preposterous.

For instance, if someone considers homosexuality a sin, I will never respect that idea cause there is no logic or evidence that that belief is true.
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Old 02-11-2005, 05:10 AM   #192
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I was thinking of part of this thread when I watched ER last night. Dr. Weaver met her biological Mom for the first time, and told her she is a lesbian. Her Mom is a religious person and was "upset" by it. The dialogue was wonderful. I wish I could remember all of it, but the one line that stood out was when Dr. Weaver said "I don't want love without acceptance". I think maybe that sort of sums it up (it did especially in the context of their entire dialogue).

It was good in case anyone wants to catch the rerun.
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Old 02-11-2005, 06:17 AM   #193
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I was thinking of part of this thread when I watched ER last night. Dr. Weaver met her biological Mom for the first time, and told her she is a lesbian. Her Mom is a religious person and was "upset" by it. The dialogue was wonderful. I wish I could remember all of it, but the one line that stood out was when Dr. Weaver said "I don't want love without acceptance". I think maybe that sort of sums it up (it did especially in the context of their entire dialogue).

It was good in case anyone wants to catch the rerun.
I saw the show last night too. , I thought that was a wonderful line that Kerry said to her mother. At the end of the show I cried.
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Old 02-11-2005, 06:19 AM   #194
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I was thinking of part of this thread when I watched ER last night. Dr. Weaver met her biological Mom for the first time, and told her she is a lesbian. Her Mom is a religious person and was "upset" by it. The dialogue was wonderful. I wish I could remember all of it, but the one line that stood out was when Dr. Weaver said "I don't want love without acceptance". I think maybe that sort of sums it up (it did especially in the context of their entire dialogue).

It was good in case anyone wants to catch the rerun.

that's a great line -- actually, that put things into perspective for me.

and the first place to begin the love with acceptance is with yourself. for a while, even after i began having relationships with men, i didn't really accept it. it's kind of amazing how one can compartmentalize aspects of one's personalities. it's one reason why i think gay people make great actors -- they learn how to be other people, and they start by fooling themselves first.

parents are much harder. i'm not "out" in any official way to my parents, though i'm pretty sure they know. for right now, it seems best to keep that aspect of our relationship simple, kind of a don't-ask-don't-tell thing. and while i am certain they'll love and accept me no matter what, for right now while i am getting my career off the ground and becoming a "real" adult (after a few years post-college of hopping around the US and Europe), i just want to keep things simple.
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Old 02-11-2005, 06:34 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
stammer,

My problem with popping in and out of these threads

Is that sometimes I reply without reading the entire thread first.
Your questions seem very sincere and you said something like your have some thinking to do,
I commend your willingness to consider other opinions.

I need to do a lot of thinking most of the time.
My remarks were not directed at you but only those that use "hate the sinner" to further a political agenda.

peace
Thanks for the comments, deep. I understand your perspective, and for the most part, you were correct in your original statement. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" has been abused to a shameful point.

But it also hit a nerve with me, since as a pastor I've seen many people that were drastically changed from their ability to accept that philosophy. It's unfortunate that most of the time we only see the caricature of Christianity, not the greatness that it can be.

And yes, this whole topic is extremely difficult for me. In my position, I don't have the luxury of just "making up my own mind." Like it or not, I realize that my opinion will influence many others, and I have to consider all sides of every situation before I can reach a conclusion. And be willing to take the consequences thereof.

But your remarks are more than necessary. Thank you.
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