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Old 02-08-2005, 02:41 PM   #136
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Originally posted by Irvine511
[B
i'm 5'11, used to be blond, blue eyes, fair skinned (irish/swedish descent), former butterflyer who's let himself go a bit and could stand to lose 10 lbs. i've been told i look like Andy Richter as well, a comment i'm not sure how to take. i've also been told i look like the eldest brother from "home improvement." [/B]
I must say that you sound rather tasty, judging by your description.

Thanks for this thread - it's interesting, and it's good to consider various issues and ideas from different perspectives.
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Old 02-08-2005, 02:43 PM   #137
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Originally posted by deep
maybe we should close this thread?

it is getting harder to hate

the sin(er)

when he appears to be an intelligent, caring, articulate person.

my soul may be in danger.

it's interesting ... all these affirmations are really wonderful, and please know that they are sent back to everyone tenfold.

but i was hoping for a little more friction, for those FYMers who do view homosexuality as a sin, or a choice, or whatever. i was hoping they might have questions, or whatever. it's been a bit of a love-in, which is lovely, but i am also open to tougher questions that you might not feel comfortable asking a gay person to his/her face. please, use the anonymity of the internet to pose whatever questions might be lurking out there.

i would also add that, as Bono has said, reminding ourselves of our common humanity -- the fact that we love, hurt, fear, etc. -- is a powerful thing; but is might be an even more powerful thing to see real differences between people, and to respect people for those differences.

i'll throw this out there, for the sake of argument.

fidelity.

would it bother anyone if i posited that looser expectations of marital fidelity might work better for male/male couples? that indiscretions might actually work to strengthen the bonds rather than weaken them? that two men might be more sympathetic to the need to seek sexual adventure and satisfaction outside marital/civil bonds better than a male/female couple might?

i also think that men find cheating wives more unforgivable than women find cheating husbands. that the same-genderness of gay and lesbian couples magnify both the best traits and the worst traits of either gender, and also underscore the fact that the two genders are really very different, and summed up in a cute but close-to-a-truth joke:

Q: What does a lesbian bring to a 2nd date?
A: a U-Haul and all her belongings.
Q: What does a gay man bring to a 2nd date?
A: what 2nd date?

just a thought.
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Old 02-08-2005, 02:51 PM   #138
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I like love-ins better

As for what you said, I think that would depend on the men-maybe that perpetuates a certain stereotype(that two gay men would be more accepting of infidelity for the purpose you described), but that's more for you to say than for me Maybe I'm too "old fashioned" about that issue to fully understand that concept.

I think the most important thing here is that people have gotten to know you better as a person. I think the fact that you are gay has become secondary, and maybe that's an accomplishment in and of itself.
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Old 02-08-2005, 02:52 PM   #139
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good point

they say men are more prone to cheat


however, women are catching up

one stat i heard recently was that something like 60% of married men will cheat and 45% of married women will.


the older i get, the easier it is for me to be monogamous
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Old 02-08-2005, 03:04 PM   #140
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2nd date

i know that's one of those -

oxy morons, right?
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Old 02-08-2005, 03:12 PM   #141
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Originally posted by coemgen
Amsterdam. Wow. I went there with my family because my mother's side is Dutch and our family friends there led us through the red light district to get to this church I think it was called Ode Kerk. Sureal experience man. Good times though. The Anne Frank house gave me chills.
Just to say... that would be Oude Kerk, on Oudekerksplein, in Amsterdam.

Old Church, on Old Church Square!!
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Old 02-08-2005, 03:25 PM   #142
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Irvine, I love the idea of freer relationships, but anyone I know who has had an open marriage has ended up divorced anyway. Same goes for gay men that I know, although they may be more likely to cheat on a partner, they never seem to be happy about it. I think the theory of sharing is great and that gays may understand or forgive more easily if something happens, but I also think that no one truly enjoys being the one left behind (so to speak)
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Old 02-08-2005, 03:35 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I like love-ins better

As for what you said, I think that would depend on the men-maybe that perpetuates a certain stereotype(that two gay men would be more accepting of infidelity for the purpose you described), but that's more for you to say than for me Maybe I'm too "old fashioned" about that issue to fully understand that concept.
hmmm ... i think "need" to stray might have been the wrong word. perhaps "temptation" to stray might be better.

yes, it does perpetuate a certain stereotype, but the gay male couples i know have a much more casual attitude towards infidelity than straight couples i know. it's not 100%, of course, but there seems to be this shared understanding. it bothers me a bit, like we're selling ourselves short. and it does make sense that standards of fidelity should be the same for all married couples, gay or straight. it has nothing to do with being old fashioned or not. i think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that your spouse will be faithful to you, and that if he/she isn't, it's grounds for divorce (should you so choose).

i also have seen gay men -- andrew sullivan on the right, dan savage on the left -- chastise the culture for being too preoccupied with sex, and demand that gay men take more responsibility for their actions. that, sadly, the spread of STDs, including HIV, particularly today when we know how these things are spread, often does come down to irresponsible behavior. no, no one ever *deserves* to get herpes, chlymidia, or god forbid HIV, but there is an element of personal responsibility that the culture as a whole has run away from -- for a variety of reasons, whether good reasons or not.

this is something i struggle with. the sexual freedom is exhilarating, but i now know enough to realize that it's also a dead end. many men, right after they first come out, go through a very promiscuous stage, a combination of depression and elation, of being free and totally apart from all the rules you were brought up with. it can also be a dangerous time, compounded by the fact that most are young and stupid anyway when they first come out.

also, because i am fearful of dying old and alone, my attitude towards fidelity is the following: whatever you need to make the relationship work and for it to last. i can easily see myself forgiving an indiscretion if the person mattered more to me than whatever expectations that i might have had.

this is something that i dont' feel totally comfortable with, as i said earlier. the "best" couple i know have been together 15 years (and they're only now hitting 40). they love each other, completely, and they also don't care if one messes up every now and then. bluntly, one said to me that he didn't care if the other was on a business trip, went to a bar, brought some meaningless trick home, because he knew that all it was was just sex, not love. what the two of them had was love, and that he would always come home to him, and that was what mattered. and that the tolerance of occasional mess-ups actually strengthened the relationship, because there was an understanding in place, and there wasn't the pressure of "if you cheat, we're over." this isn't an open relationship by any means, but it is different from the cultural standard that i absorbed growing up.

and i dunno. i'm still dealing with this.

at the end of the day, i want to have someone. and i'm willing to fight my own expectations and idealism.

remember: it's a smaller applicant pool. 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 are gay; you do the best you can with what you have.

and this is where some of the sadness of being gay comes in. there are lowered expectations for some things. and so, you pick your battles.
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Old 02-08-2005, 03:38 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissMoo
Irvine, I love the idea of freer relationships, but anyone I know who has had an open marriage has ended up divorced anyway. Same goes for gay men that I know, although they may be more likely to cheat on a partner, they never seem to be happy about it. I think the theory of sharing is great and that gays may understand or forgive more easily if something happens, but I also think that no one truly enjoys being the one left behind (so to speak)

makes a lot of sense to me.

i'm still working through this. none of this has to happen to me, or to anyone, but it is something that i have noticed. and it gives me pause.
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Old 02-08-2005, 04:07 PM   #145
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I do agree with what you say about making a mistake. It seems that women (at least young women) tend to think that any cheating is the end of it. Truthfully, if you read history there has been a lot of cheating going on. My personal opinion is similar to yours, if it happens you deal with it, and hopefully work through it. My personal peeve is when people lie about it. Live up to your commitments by admitting when you break your commitments, or have an agreement to not ask or tell!
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Old 02-08-2005, 06:21 PM   #146
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Irvine511,

I know several couples, mainly through my aunt that have been together for many many years. She was 70 this year and was an antique dealer for many years (no stereotype intended just factual). A few have even lost their partners to old age. Maybe they were together before the opening of the gay scene or maybe it's love. Anyway it happens and you won't necessarily need to be older and alone. I also hope society changes and becomes more welcoming and helps nurture partnerships not try to break them.
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Old 02-09-2005, 04:45 AM   #147
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"at the end of the day, i want to have someone. and i'm willing to fight my own expectations and idealism.

remember: it's a smaller applicant pool. 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 are gay; you do the best you can with what you have.

and this is where some of the sadness of being gay comes in. there are lowered expectations for some things. and so, you pick your battles."


OK, now I understand better what you meant after reading your answer to my question. Geez my question sounded like some self-righteous moral judgment, and I apologize for that.
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Old 02-09-2005, 01:50 PM   #148
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Irvine and the rest of those who have posted in this thread: It was a great read and I learned a few things along the way. My oldest friend is gay (out of the closet) and he struggles often with it. Sometimes he's completely comfortable with it, other times it's a real challenge. I don't ever ask him questions about his sexuality because to me, he's just Dave, my friend. So Irvine, it was informative to read some of your answers.

Yes, this was a "love fest" w/ little friction and conflict, but on topics of this nature, I'd rather that we all got along as opposed to name calling and silly ignorance.
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Old 02-09-2005, 05:48 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



this is something that i dont' feel totally comfortable with, as i said earlier. the "best" couple i know have been together 15 years (and they're only now hitting 40). they love each other, completely, and they also don't care if one messes up every now and then. bluntly, one said to me that he didn't care if the other was on a business trip, went to a bar, brought some meaningless trick home, because he knew that all it was was just sex, not love. what the two of them had was love, and that he would always come home to him, and that was what mattered. and that the tolerance of occasional mess-ups actually strengthened the relationship, because there was an understanding in place, and there wasn't the pressure of "if you cheat, we're over." this isn't an open relationship by any means, but it is different from the cultural standard that i absorbed growing up.

This is true of my gay friends in long-term relationships as well and, frankly, it is these relationships that I admire and respect and that seem healthy to me. There is not one relationship among my close straight couple friends that I feel is as healthy and strong as those of my gay friends in long-term relationships. I see infidelity in a much different light now through my friendships with gay couples than I used to. I'm just not sure if that kind of tolerance and openness works in hetero relationships because women generally are not interested in the casual one-night stand just for sex if they are in a fulfilling relationship. Women tend to cheat because their needs aren't getting met at home in some way. Men cheat sometimes for the same reason but they can also cheat just for the pure sexual act. So this kind of tolerance in a hetero relationship more often than not would be imbalanced for the woman and leave her feeling like he had all the power in the relationship. I doubt I would end a loving relationship over one indiscretion but I'm not sure I could tolerate multiple indiscretions. It works for gay men; I've never really seen it work for hetero couples.
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Old 02-09-2005, 10:13 PM   #150
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Just curious Irvine, but what do you think of Beyonce?
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