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Old 03-21-2005, 08:34 AM   #16
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Of course I would never recommend 57's for vocals, unless they are being used for an effect.
vertigo, as well as various other u2 songs, have been recorded by bono with a hand-held 87 in the control room. sometimes it's the performance that really counts.

the real question on everyone's mind -

large or small diaphragm condensers for drum oh's?
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Old 03-21-2005, 10:17 AM   #17
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vertigo, as well as various other u2 songs, have been recorded by bono with a hand-held 87 in the control room. sometimes it's the performance that really counts.

the real question on everyone's mind -

large or small diaphragm condensers for drum oh's?
Yeah, I have seen a lot of Bono with a 57 in the control room, but I would wager he is singing scratch vocal tracks most of the time. I would have a hard time believing he does his vocals unisolated with a 57. They just sound too good...maybe I am wrong...but I don't think so. Maybe backing tracks...

Large or small...really depends on the actual mic. There are a lot of people that use one or the other exclusively. I prefer small diaphragm (KM184, AT4051) as I find the off axis repsonse is better and I don't get as much phasing. There are definitely believers in large condensers as well. I would argue that the difference falls more along how you actually use your drum overheads. Mine are cymbal mics, typically. Many use them for whole kit mics.

I personally like to try sometimes to use the least amount of mics as I can...then I will go for a stereo overhead or some large diaphragm condensors. Really depends on the sound you are going for. Room mic's are really underrated when it comes to mic-ing drums.

Nashville tends to mic (and sometimes double mic) every single drum. You know, top and bottom snare, top and bottom tom..with triggers...blah...I prefer the British approach. More Ringo star for me...including the Lucky Strikes on the snare head.
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Old 03-21-2005, 12:57 PM   #18
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Originally posted by cmb737


Room mic's are really underrated when it comes to mic-ing drums.

Nashville tends to mic (and sometimes double mic) every single drum. You know, top and bottom snare, top and bottom tom..with triggers...blah...I prefer the British approach.
i'll take a good roomy drum kit anyday. although i always mic the toms up...there is just something about that thudmp of a 421. i love it.
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:16 AM   #19
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Yeah, I have seen a lot of Bono with a 57 in the control room, but I would wager he is singing scratch vocal tracks most of the time. I would have a hard time believing he does his vocals unisolated with a 57. They just sound too good...maybe I am wrong...but I don't think so. Maybe backing tracks...

Large or small...really depends on the actual mic. There are a lot of people that use one or the other exclusively. I prefer small diaphragm (KM184, AT4051)

Agreed. The 57 story - in his hand!? - no way.

KM184 is a pretty good mic. Interesting that you prefer small diaphragms. For vocals, I tend to use stuff like U87 or U89 if possible. Don´t like the AKG 414, some prefer it, but I think it sounds too neutral.

Drum techniques.. yeah. KM 184 or the 4051 are good for overheads. I don´t like much room on the drums (depending on the quality of the room and the engineer, but..) so I´m not really a fan of 57s for snare&toms.. sure enough you can use them, but when I produce I like to have kinda "clean" single tracks. I´m more into sampled drums anyway. Create your own kick out of a mix of three! sure that goes more for dance, electro, etc. than for rock. In an acoustic drum environment, D112 are widely used for recording the kick.

As to the Ringo Starr approach: I´ll bite and say that a wellbalanced acoustic drum recording needs at least six microphones. You agree or can you make it with four (kick, snare, overheads...what about the toms then?)
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmb737


Yeah, I have seen a lot of Bono with a 57 in the control room, but I would wager he is singing scratch vocal tracks most of the time. I would have a hard time believing he does his vocals unisolated with a 57. They just sound too good...maybe I am wrong...but I don't think so. Maybe backing tracks...

to clarify, i read he used an SM58 for most of HTDAAB, not a 57. i'd also like to mention that i think the pre-amp and eq curve ultimately have more to do with how the sound is shaped than the microphone. i'd take a 58 into an avalon or api anyday over a u87 into a mackie.

anyway, i'll try and dig up where i heard this.
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:57 AM   #21
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Agreed. The 57 story - in his hand!? - no way.

KM184 is a pretty good mic. Interesting that you prefer small diaphragms. For vocals, I tend to use stuff like U87 or U89 if possible. Don´t like the AKG 414, some prefer it, but I think it sounds too neutral.

Drum techniques.. yeah. KM 184 or the 4051 are good for overheads. I don´t like much room on the drums (depending on the quality of the room and the engineer, but..) so I´m not really a fan of 57s for snare&toms.. sure enough you can use them, but when I produce I like to have kinda "clean" single tracks. I´m more into sampled drums anyway. Create your own kick out of a mix of three! sure that goes more for dance, electro, etc. than for rock. In an acoustic drum environment, D112 are widely used for recording the kick.

As to the Ringo Starr approach: I´ll bite and say that a wellbalanced acoustic drum recording needs at least six microphones. You agree or can you make it with four (kick, snare, overheads...what about the toms then?)
Yeah, whenever you are going with the "less is more" technique to drum micing I think you are going for an effect or a particular sound. A older, British sound. Toms were captured through the overheads, but Ringo uses his toms a lot less than a lot of modern drummers (our Mr Mullen for example).

As for the KM 184, I woudn't use that on vocals, unless it was a choral thing and I was using it for high rooms or something like that. I love the 184 on accoustic guitar though...on omni. Weird, but cool sounding. No proximity.

U87 to me is such a cliche mic these days. Everyone has one, but no one really uses them in real pro studios I have worked in in Nashville on vox. These are the drum overheads, or the piano pair, or a second kick mic. They are a brilliant all purpose mic. The 57 of the large diaphragm condenser world.

You mentioned the AKG, yes..that is a mic that is a bit overrated too in my mind (fab on horns though).

Have you tried any of the higher Audiotechnica mics? I like the AT 4050. I know a lot of artists that use this mic, but when the press shots are done they throw up a Telefunken or something like that. Pretty funny actually. It is a real popular mic line in the hip hop/rap world as well.

C12 is my first choice for vocals, but it depends on the singer. Shure SM7 is also kind of interesting...lots of these used too. It is really taste and the singer that matter most.
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Old 03-22-2005, 09:02 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Se7en


to clarify, i read he used an SM58 for most of HTDAAB, not a 57. i'd also like to mention that i think the pre-amp and eq curve ultimately have more to do with how the sound is shaped than the microphone. i'd take a 58 into an avalon or api anyday over a u87 into a mackie.

anyway, i'll try and dig up where i heard this.

Man, that would really be cool to find out. I heard that he does a lot of vocals in the control booth without cans, but with a 58? My word, there must be some great engineering going on there. If I remember right the 57 and 58 are basically the same mic just with a different polar pattern. I heard a story once about an engineer that couldn't find a hammer for something, so he used a 57...and then finished the session with it on a guitar amp.

Of course, the vocal chain is as important as the mic, but no matter what you are using as a channel path (api or mackie) there is only so much that you are going to get with a 58. I personally will take an above average mic and an above average pre rather than an either/or of great mic or great pre. As long as Mackie isn't considered above average!

C12 with API 512...
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:16 AM   #23
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Originally posted by cmb737

It is a real popular mic line in the hip hop/rap world as well.
this brings up an interesting question - is there a reasonable hip-hop scene in the southwest?

after graduation i will be moving to new york to hopefully get some more experience in a real studio before relocating to a smaller market and running my own. at least for now that's the long term goal.

i'm currently interning at a local studio in harrisburg and 70-80% of its business comes from the local hip-hop scene. these guys come in and spend TONS of cash. hell, one group is paying the head engineer to edit out all of the cusses from a double mix tape (30-40 songs) at $40 an hour! hip-hop is easy money for the studio and since i've got a decent amount of experience with it now, it would be nice to tap into that sort of scene where ever i end up.

to bring this post full circle - i drove across the country in december with 3 of my college buddies and i absolutely fell in love with the american southwest. arizona and southern california are just stunning! unfortunately we missed new mexico (entered at sundown and drove straight through to arizona). so anyway, it is definitely an area i wouldn't mind ending up in.

so - what's the hip hop scene like in the SW?
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:59 AM   #24
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I am not that plugged into the scene yet as I just moved here in December. I will, however, tell you that the southwest is a unrealized hotbed of talent and artists. In New Mexico alone, there are hundreds of bands, and only 2 or 3 pro level studios. That being said, everybody with an MBox thinks they are a producer (and that is even more common in the hiphop world) but there most certainly is opportunity for do-it-yourselfers. I became disillusioned with the Nashville scene and realized that I was working for pennies when if I spent the same amount of time working for myself that I could probably do better and be happier.

Music is a terrible and wonderful gig.

There is an extensive electronic scene here, as well as a lot of regional southwest only stuff. New Mexico happens to be one of the fastest growing markets for film and that in turn leads to spin off work for us audio professionals.

I am partial to New Mexico over Arizona, much prettier, much more cultural, much less crowded and I lived in San Diego for 10 years so I know what goes on there.

We would live in San Diego in a second, but you need to sell your kidneys to be able to afford a home there. It is just not reasonable, and not worth the lifestyle sacrifices that you are forced to make. I can buy a $39 plane ticket when I miss the beach.

Check out NM. Land of Enchantment.
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:21 PM   #25
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Originally posted by cmb737

Have you tried any of the higher Audiotechnica mics?
Could be, in some other studios, can ´t remember, but might give em a shot sometime..

Have you tried the Schoeps microphones for acoustic guitar/ piano? CMC6 with MK4 are my favorites. Totally fucking brilliant microphones. Did a fine Martin acoustic guitar with 2 of them for a blues recording. Just had a little of compression, and send the signal thru a Lexicon 300.. man the sound was RINGING in my ears! One of those wow experiences. That said, the guitar itself was special too.

Last thing I used my 57 for was... for recording a Cello. True dat! lol
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:30 PM   #26
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I was gonna say...probably the best part of that whole combination was the Martin...almost a shame to make 1's and 0's of it.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:53 PM   #27
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I've been told that in the latest edition of Audio Media magazine there is an article about the making of HTDAAB and that the vocal path is described as follows: SM58->Neve 1081->Teletronix LA-2A

I'm going to try and get my hands on the magazine if I can. As I suspected, the rest of the signal chain is to die for.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:57 PM   #28
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Do you have any of your work on mp3 or any other filetype?
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:57 PM   #29
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Wow..two surprises there..the 58 and a heavy compressor to tape. I could see it on some songs..yeah...but would LOVE to see the article or just about anything else on U2's studio techniques. Good work Se7en.
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Old 03-22-2005, 06:09 PM   #30
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Do you have any of your work on mp3 or any other filetype?
Well, technically yes, but most of it is copywritten by artists under contract, so I wouldn't feel right about distribuiting it on here.
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