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Old 06-09-2003, 01:51 PM   #31
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I'm going to stay out of the debate here, but I'd like to show my support for the employees as they attempt to overturn this decision.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:00 PM   #32
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why yes, fizz, i can explain.

the definition of phobia : a persistant, abnormal, or irrational fear of a specific thing or situation.

disagreeing with a lifestyle does not equal fear, nor does it equal hatred. nor does it make me irrational. nor does it make me abnormal. nor does it make me afraid. i never said i hated gays. i never said gays were inferior. i simply said that i disapprove. equating disapproval with hatred is just ridiculous.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:14 PM   #33
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Actually homophobia is usually defined as fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

I do believe that to "disapprove" of a person's sexuality meets the definition of having contempt for them. Disapproval implies that you believe there is something wrong with being gay, something worthy of criticism. What exactly do you "disapprove" of? And being gay isn't a "lifestyle" anymore than being a Black person or a woman is a lifestyle.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:20 PM   #34
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Please don’t delete the post.

Bigotry is not pretty, covering it up just lets us all pretend it does not exist.

Did this event take place last year under Ashcroft’s reign?

In canceling it, is he not giving in to the haters?


Some gay friends told me they don't buy the Adam and Steve thing either. They said it would more likely have been Adam and Stefan
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:21 PM   #35
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I think bonogirl's opinion makes for an interesting debate. There is a difference between not agreeing with the homosexual lifestyle and being a homophobe. If bonogirl doesn't believe its right for two people of the same gender to be in a sexual relationship, that's fine and we should all respect her opinion.

What Ashcroft is doing is taking this beyong a matter of opinion point. If he disagrees with homosexuality that's fine. But if he starts to crack down on it -- "You're having gay sex, off to jail!" -- then I have issues. Same with recognizing same-sex unions or same-sex work benefits. Disagree with the lifestyle, fine. But there is a fine line between opinion and bigotry.

On that note, I want a straight women pride day. Or would John Ashcroft say no -- owing to the fact that we should be barefoot and cooking at home?
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:26 PM   #36
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please, fizz. you're reaching.

you cannot tell me that because i disapprove, i automatically have contempt. it's ridiculous.

i'm having a bit of trouble with that last part as well. my lifestyle is not that of a woman? i'm confused.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:31 PM   #37
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I think that was Fizzing is saying is that a "lifestyle" is typically something chosen and planned. For example, one might live the lifestyle of an environmentalist by recycling carefully and choosing environmentally-friendly products. One might live the lifestyle of a Jewish person by attending synagogue and observing Jewish holidays. Etc., etc.

Homosexuality, however, to the best of the evidence we have, is an orientation--*not* a choice. You can stretch the argument by saying that one chooses to engage in gay sex or to date members of the same sex, but for all intents and purposes, homosexuals seem to be born and not made. Jews or environmentalists, on the other hand, are made.

Also, at least for me, I'd say that I have contempt for most things I disapprove of. I have contempt for murder, child abuse, racism, etc. I would say that for most people, they go hand in hand. I try not to have contempt for the *person* who does such things--this, I guess, is what is meant by "hating the sin and loving the sinner"--but I do have contempt for the acts themselves.

I suppose I'm as interested as everyone else in finding out why it's okay to have a huge problem with something that 2 adults do in their own homes, that harms no one else, and actually puts *more* love out into a world that really needs it.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:33 PM   #38
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oh yes, i forgot. it can't be helped.
and once that argument comes into it, i always step out.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Please don’t delete the post.

Bigotry is not pretty, covering it up just lets us all pretend it does not exist.

Did this event take place last year under Ashcroft’s reign?

In canceling it, is he not giving in to the haters?


Some gay friends told me they don't buy the Adam and Steve thing either. They said it would more likely have been Adam and Stefan

I agree, I think it should be left up.

This event has been held every year for the past 6 years, but the new rule requiring a presidential proclamation was added this year...Bush refused to give the proclamation. I guess "Leif Erikson day" had more significance.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:54 PM   #40
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All I have to say is that, if it is a choice, and it seems you think it is. Don't you think you would choose a much easier "lifestyle". Choosing a lifestyle that so many have a stigma towards, that is plagued with violent bashing in so many parts of the world, and a lifestyle where certain rights are denied depending on where you live. This is the reason for a day of recognition. When there's a group in this country that is this large and they have rights being denied them, just because a majority doesn't "understand" or they "dissaprove" of them it's a step backwards, and you need people standing up to get heard and to educate the public of who they really are.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:59 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
All I have to say is that, if it is a choice, and it seems you think it is. Don't you think you would choose a much easier "lifestyle". Choosing a lifestyle that so many have a stigma towards, that is plagued with violent bashing in so many parts of the world, and a lifestyle where certain rights are denied depending on where you live. This is the reason for a day of recognition. When there's a group in this country that is this large and they have rights being denied them, just because a majority doesn't "understand" or they "dissaprove" of them it's a step backwards, and you need people standing up to get heard and to educate the public of who they really are.


2 people very close to me are gay and readily admit that although the are happy and have fulfilling lives, this not something they would have "chosen" given the hatred and stigmas attached to it. To not even be able to talk about the person you love at work or even acknowledge they exist if you are in the military is not something most people would voluntarily ask for.
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Old 06-09-2003, 03:47 PM   #42
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I agree with everything Pax said and I think she said it better than I could have done, so I'll just say that and not repond to bonogirl's post, even though it was directed at me.

The only thing I want to say is, you use the phrase "it can't be helped" as though being gay is something which should be prevented if that were possible. Again, to me that seems like having contempt for lesbian and gay people because it's saying that their sexuality is something which can "be helped" implying it can somehow be changed to being "normal." I don't think homosexuality is a choice (BVS and BAW make good points about who would choose all the difficulties lesbian and gay people experience) and even if it were, I don't believe it would be a choice that ought to be discouraged anymore than being heterosexual ought to be discouraged.

*Fizz.
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Old 06-09-2003, 04:52 PM   #43
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Fine then. Since we're on the subject of disapproval...

Islam should be a banned religion. In fact, let's ban all of religion. I don't disapprove of religion, but when these religious folk start parading around and showing off in public, that's where I have to take a stand! Republicans...well, I disapprove of them, so let's make any Republican activity illegal. Not Republicans, mind you. God loves Republicans, but not what they do. And straight men...well, I'm tired of how the media constantly caters to this psychologically disturbed class of people. A world of bimbo blondes, beer, and bad fathers, not to mention infidelity, poor manners, and setting a bad example for our children! If they pray hard enough, these straight men can be healed of their affliction!

But again...just because I disapprove, it doesn't automatically mean that I have contempt.

....

Don't forget that, under all the ideology, gays and lesbians are people too.

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Old 06-09-2003, 05:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosgirl84
oh yes, i forgot. it can't be helped.
and once that argument comes into it, i always step out.
that's what i tell women all the time. damn women. maybe if they pray to God more and have less abortions, they can be healed of their womanness and be a man like God intended for all of His creatures.

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Old 06-09-2003, 06:10 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora

I suppose I'm as interested as everyone else in finding out why it's okay to have a huge problem with something that 2 adults do in their own homes, that harms no one else, and actually puts *more* love out into a world that really needs it.
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